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mutual fund purchase does not subtract from cash account

karenwtn
karenwtn Member
edited December 2019 in Investing (Windows)
I entered a buy oder for a mutual fund with the shares and price and total. it shows the total in the register but does not subtract the total from the register. It just says NA. What is wrong? I just downloaded 2014 hoping to fix it but no.

Comments

  • markus1957
    markus1957 SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited January 2019
    Are you using a linked cash account? I don't so bear with me until anther user who does weighs in.

    Please verify this is NOT a Retirement account with a Linked Cash Account because those get weird so wait for another user to help.

    Under Quicken default setup, cash is managed in the investment account. The fix should be as simple as editing the transaction (double-click or right-click>edit) and check the box for "Use Cash from this Accounts Cash Balance".  With a linked cash account, I believe you use the box below that and select the linked cash account.

    Hope that helps. If not, please explain further.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited July 2016
    the cash in the managed investment account is NOT reduced by the amount of the mutual fund purchase even though  you check the box to pay for out of cash
  • volvogirl
    volvogirl SuperUser ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
  • kohls
    kohls Member ✭✭
    edited January 2019

    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...
  • NotACPA
    NotACPA SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    To quote an old programmer's joke: "That's not a bug, it's a feature".
    The N/A in an investment account arises because there are "placeholder" transactions in the account.
    The placeholders occur when there is a discrepancy between the amount (shares, etc) of a security that you hold in an account (as shown in Q) and the value downloaded from your brokerage/fund-company, etc.
    Rather that creating the missing transaction(s), which Q can't possibly know the details of, it creates the placeholder for the total of the missing shares.

    Resolving the missing transactions, and eliminating the placeholder -- as you seem to be doing -- is the proper and expected remedy to what is, fundamentally, a user error.
    Q user since DOS version 5
    Now running Quicken Windows Subscription,  Home & Business
    Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP
  • markus1957
    markus1957 SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    I'm no fan of Placeholders but if there is a "bug", it seems to be that when following the normal course of action driven by Quicken led keystrokes to replace the Placeholder with actual transactions, the user finds themselves in a situation where the Placeholder is not really removed and the actual transactions entered do not behave normally in that cash balance is not calculated.

    The user is required to manually delete the place holder, then also delete the Quicken driven transactions created by the Placeholder resolution process and manually enter transactions again. The bug is that the Quicken software Placeholder resolution process does not perform as expected and requires a 100% manual delete process to rectify the Quicken placeholder resolution bug and then start from scratch after Quicken fails to perform as designed to manually resolve the Placeholder.
  • kohls
    kohls Member ✭✭
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    Just to be clear, the original poster and I are aware of the purpose of the N/A and placeholder transactions, thank you very much.  What is at issue is that when entering the correcting transactions, which (for example) can often appear due to redundant transactions being issued by the financial institution (such as issuing a Div + a ReinvDiv).  What is at issue is that the Cash Amount erroneously appears as "N/A" even when manually creating the correcting, back-dated transaction.
  • kohls
    kohls Member ✭✭
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    It's safe to presume that one would have seen the pop-up help linked to the "N/A", which explains everything, before coming here to inquire. Reiterating the manual is really not much help, and the conclusion that it's in the end a "user error" is patently untrue and disingenuous.  The Cash Amount error is a bug, and it's been noted in this thread and in several others in this forum over a number of versions.
  • Howard Roark
    Howard Roark Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    "The Cash Amount error is a bug ...".

    Hogwash. That statement, in addition to being redundant, indicates that you are apparently not as "aware of the purpose of the N/A and placeholder transactions" as you claim.

    For starters:
    The "user error" that you deny, occurs when a user, who intends to record each investment transaction basically as it occurs and to have the Quicken investment account handle the cash for those transactions "normally", accepts a Quicken offer of a placeholder. If the user's intention is to record all the actual investment transactions and to have the cash for those transactions handled by Quicken ... there is no reason to accept the offer of a placeholder and the problem of "N/A" for cash will never occur. And if a placeholder is accepted unintentionally, deleting that placeholder before entering the transactions that would have resolved it, will allow cash to be handled normally when those transactions are entered.

    As to the "N/A":
    One of the primary uses of placeholders is to record share balances in an account where the cash source/destination for the transactions that makeup the placeholder is not available (the user does not know the source, or does not want to create/manage a separate Quicken account to track the cash source/destination). That is: it may be desired to record buys and sells that account for the share balance in a placeholder without having to account for the cash involved in those transactions.

    Picture the user who starts using Quicken after having an active real-world investment account for years. That user may want Quicken to reflect the correct share balance immediately, but to record the historical investment activity over time ... without having to account for the source/destination of the cash involved in that historical investment account activity.

    It would create a mess if the user entered a placeholder to bring the account up-to-date with the current share balance - never intending to account for cash prior to the date of the placeholder - then entered earlier buy/sell transactions, which caused the cash balance in the account to become non-zero ... defeating the purpose of using the placeholder.

    Quicken is handling placeholders and their subsequently entered history as intended, and correctly. There is no bug.

    [If you click on "N/A" in a Quicken investment account, you'll get Quicken Help, which says in part: "In addition, the overall cash balance of an investment account (Cash Bal column) will not change as you resolve placeholder entries".]
  • kohls
    kohls Member ✭✭
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    You're really not trying to understand or recreate the conditions here, fix the problem or effect a workaround ...

    I've been using Quicken for over 20 years to manage all types of financial accounts. I have an advanced degree in Engineering, an MBA...and not only that, I know how to read!   So spare me the recitation of the manual - it really doesn't help. I know full well the use of the Placeholder, and the context in which N/A is to be appropriately applied.

    I hold several brokerage accounts that include holdings in bonds, equities, and mutual funds, and also maintain a non-zero cash balance, from which funds are drawn to execute trades, write personal checks, or transfer funds.  What is at issue is that when a back-dated entry is created manually in which the "Bought" transaction is selected, the Cash Amt field is populated erroneously with "N/A", which renders the new Cash Amount incorrect.  The cash account should be debited in this transaction, and it is not!  A counter-acting transaction then needs to be created to correct this error, otherwise Quicken will create a Placeholder the next time the account holdings are verified with the institution, which covers up the bug!  Going back to fill in the details of the Placeholder is what uncovers it again.

    So to illustrate, here's a link to a screen shot of a brokerage account register that exhibits both correct (showing red cash amounts in the entries equal to the investment amount less commission) and incorrect (showing blue "N/A") Bought transactions, with their corresponding correct and incorrect updates to the cash amount balance:

    https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=261C6B92F29E2CF0!5319&authkey=!AJOOyQZeAicnCsk&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.jpg

    Also shown toward the bottom is a counter-acting "Xout" (transfer cash out) transaction that was applied to bring the cash balance up to date by debiting the account by the sum total of all the incorrect Bought transactions.  When buy transactions are downloaded from the financial institution, they do not (and should not) have "N/A" in the Cash Amt field.

    It should be noted that the entries showing "N/A" report the Total Cost correctly when the transaction pop-up window is opened. The Total Cost is not reported in the Cash Amt field for the transaction in the register display.  As such, when attempting to edit the transaction via the pop-up window, all of the information displayed is correct!  However, the register cash balance is not. Simply deleting and re-creating the transaction has the same result unless following the workaround laid out in my first entry above.
  • markus1957
    markus1957 SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    @Kohls- in the interest of trying to recreate the conditions and fix the problem, let me say first off that I erroneously assumed this error was being generated out of the Quicken Placeholder resolution process whereby within the Placeholder entry pop-up the user can enter a transaction history to resolve the placeholder. I never use that screen and simply delete the placeholder and enter actual transactions to replace it so I am not familiar with its operation.

    You seem to be saying that generically (&100% of the time?) when you enter a Buy Shares transaction more than 1 year in the past that Quicken does not use the account cash value to buy the shares and adjust cash balance. Further an N/A is placed in the transaction Cash Amt column. Do I have that correct?

    I have never seen that behavior in using several versions of Quicken, currently H&B 14. The only time I see an N/A in Cash Amt field is for Add Shares transactions. I attempted to recreate your issue by entering a 100 share purchase of BMO @ $50/sh dated May 26, 2011. I used two methods of entry. The first being double-clicking the empty last transaction line to get the pop-up entry window and the second being a straight entry at the bottom of register changing the date and entering transaction details. In both cases Cash Amt and cash balance were properly reflected. The transactions were found in the expected register location by date. The only difference in the 2 methods was that the straight entry method spawned the "greater than a year warning" whereas the pop-up window method did not spawn the warning box.

    So based on this testing, this is not a classic "bug" in the sense that all users experience the behavior 100% of the time when following an explicit data entry path. This leaves individual installation issues or data file corruption issues as potential causes. The fact that there are other users experiencing N/A entries does point to a certain amount of fragility either in the construction/operation of the database or software installation/execution. But with a clean install and a corruption free database the N/A behavior is not exhibited. I'm working with a 43Mb QDF file containing 24K transactions so it has seen some history and has been subject to conversions yearly since about 2007.

    Please advise if I have misinterpreted any of the steps required to recreate the N/A error condition.
  • kohls
    kohls Member ✭✭
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    @markus1957: You may be on to something.  My working file, which was rectified of the errors using the workaround I developed, is now clear of the violating condition everywhere. I can now enter transactions directly for the actual date and the cash amount adjusts correctly.  However, when working with a backup file made before the rectification, I still am unable to enter new back-dated transactions that adjust the cash balance correctly.  Switching on hidden transactions reveals that those transactions showing "N/A" in the cash amount have associated with them an "XIn" transaction with the memo "Balancing Cash Adjustment".  These do not look like "Entry" Placeholders.  Deleting either of the associated Bought or Xin transactions deletes both. However, even after the deletion, I still need to use the workaround to recreate the transaction and get the cash amount to appear correctly.  At some point, perhaps after deleting all the violating transactions, the account allows the direct entry of backdated transactions that adjust the cash balance correctly?
  • Howard Roark
    Howard Roark Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    The balancing cash adjustments are Quicken's way of handling the "N/A" cash effect in investment accounts that have a linked checking account. Since the rule is that transactions affected by a placeholder can not alter the cash amount, and since the cash amount in an investment account with a linked checking account is in that linked checking account, Quicken creates a second transaction to offset the cash effect in the linked checking account.
    It's all part of the same placeholder process.
  • markus1957
    markus1957 SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    OK, I'm getting lost again. First question I asked in response to OP, "Are you using a linked cash account?" No one claiming to experience this issue has yet answered YES to that question so am I off track again assuming we are NOT dealing with a linked cash account?

    @Kohls , are you using a linked cash account for this problem investment account?
    Using a hidden Balancing Cash Adjustment is not the normal Quicken process for a manually entered Buy transaction in an investment account where cash is handled within the investment account.

    NWJ, indicates this is the normal process for Linked cash accounts. But if you are not using one, then that would only leave the Quicken placeholder resolution process as the source. NWJ also referenced Quicken Help files that state without details, that using the Placeholder resolution process will not change cash balance. So if @Kohls is not using a Linked cash account, the hidden transactions he is seeing must be the result of entering transaction history within the placeholder resolution pop-up. Until now I did not understand entering "transaction history" for a placeholder was not really as the words describe but seemingly a convoluted Add Shares transaction utilizing a hidden XIn transaction tied to a Buy Shares. I'm left wondering why Quicken doesn't just utilize a normal Add Shares transaction leaving out the linked hidden transaction and its negative effect on entering manual transactions for earlier dates.

    So Bug or No Bug? While the placeholder resolution process appears to be functioning as designed, @kohls indicates he can demonstrate manual entry of unrelated transactions for prior dates is prevented by having some number of placeholder resolution transactions present in the account register. I would propose that if @kohls can show the effect on a non-placeholder related transaction similar to my BMO example, then we may have a bug. Any thoughts?
  • mshiggins
    mshiggins SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    Placeholders (rightly or wrongly) are designed to lock the share balance and/or the cash balance to the amount the user specified on the date the user specified. Any transactions entered before that date will be subject to the placeholder share/cash balance locking and will not change the share/cash balance.
    Quicken user since Q1999. Currently using QW2017.
    Questions? Check out the  Quicken Windows FAQ list
  • markus1957
    markus1957 SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    No Bug. Thank you all, I learned something about placeholders in this exchange. Looking back many years in my accounts, I found several old N/A transactions with associated Cash Balance Adjustment XIn. In what can only be described as a blind Darwinian process, I haven't resolved a Placeholder by entering "transaction history" in more than 5 years. Since then,placeholders have been deleted and replaced with regular Add Shares or Buy transactions (No N/A's).

    So I took the opportunity to run the BMO experiment for a date in 2007 which put me in the middle of my Placeholder era. Entering a manual Buy Shares transaction resulted in the account cash balance being adjusted for the cost of the transaction as one would hope (No N/A). The transaction was properly inserted in the register at the date entered showing cash impact of the transaction. So placeholders do not lock out cash balance adjustments when manual transactions for unrelated shares are entered prior to the date of a placeholder entry.

    NWJ, you are a gold mine of information and a valuable resource to QLC. Hope you continue to weigh in on the difficult issues. Thank you all for your patience until the light bulb went on.
  • mshiggins
    mshiggins SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    If your placeholder transactions were replaced with regular transactions, there is no longer a placeholder to lock the amounts.
    Quicken user since Q1999. Currently using QW2017.
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  • markus1957
    markus1957 SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    I suppose that is a test that still needs to be run. That is, does an unresolved Placeholder for which "transaction history" has NOT been entered via the Placeholder resolution pop-up window,  prevent manual entry of Buy/Add transactions for unrelated securities for dates prior to the Placeholder date?

    The linked set of transactions Quicken creates via the placeholder resolution process (a Buy/Add transaction linked to XIn Cash Balance Adjustment with N/A designations) are NOT "regular" transactions. "Regular" transactions would be those that do NOT result in an N/A designation in the Cash Amt field. As NWJ pointed out (in volvogirls answer link)Placeholders resolved via the "Enter transaction history" process pop-up do not really go away. They are just hidden and replaced with the goofy linked Buy/Add/XIn set of transactions but as long as N/A is shown, the Placeholder still exists.

    In the BMO test just performed, several of the goofy linked transactions with N/A (aka shape shifted Placeholders) were present for dates subsequent to the BMO test entry so Placeholders were still present.
  • Howard Roark
    Howard Roark Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    " ... does an unresolved Placeholder ... prevent manual entry of Buy/Add transactions for unrelated securities for dates prior to the Placeholder date?"

    No. A placeholder transaction is for a specific security - it will only affect transactions for that specific security, dated on or before the placeholder.

    Regarding balancing adjustments and linked checking accounts. If the investment account has a linked checking account and Quicken needs to enter a balancing cash adjustment due to the presence of a placeholder, that balancing cash adjustment will remain in the account even if the account is later changed to no longer have a linked checking account.
    And Quicken will also enter balancing cash adjustments in Single Mutual Fund accounts - under the same conditions and for the same reason, it enters them in investment accounts with linked checking accounts ... because the "cash" involved in the transaction is in a different account than the investment account ... and the rule still applies that transactions affected by placeholders will not alter cash balances. If the single mutual fund characteristic is later dropped from the investment account, the balancing cash adjustment(s) will remain in the account until deleted by the user, just as for the investment account with linked checking account.

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's a simple matter to avoid the unwanted impact of placeholders.
    1.) Do not accept Quicken's offer to adjust a share balance after a download (or after a Compare to Portfolio).
    2.) If you mistakenly fail to follow the advice in point #1: delete the placeholder before adding any transactions to the investment account - either manually or via download
    [Note: A "placeholder" is a Quicken "Adjust Share Balance" transaction. You can enter Adjust Share Balance transactions yourself, manually. But should not, if you are trying to avoid those unwanted impacts.]
  • markus1957
    markus1957 SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    Thanks again. I have found that a hidden Balancing Cash Adjustment XIn transaction is also entered in a normal investment account holding multiple securities that does not have a linked cash account. Just tested that with the Adjust Share Balance and Enter Missing Transactions function spawned from the Placeholder. A Buy/Add transaction linked to a XIn Balancing Cash Adjustment transaction are added. Lesson learned, as you say, avoid Placeholders.
  • kohls
    kohls Member ✭✭
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    @markus1957 It would appear to me that in the original "broken" account for which I showed the screenshot, the Bought transactions with "N/A" Cash Amts may have been the result of the Placeholder Resolution Process when the account was first created and a short history of initial transactions was downloaded.  The two or three that showed correct Cash Amt adjustments were probably created by circumventing the Placeholder pop-up with a manual entry, as NWJ recommends, after realizing this was more key-stroke efficient for lack of a better reason - unfortunately at that point, the well had already been poisoned.  That said, I'm still of the mind that one "spoiling" transaction for any security locks up the whole account, not just that security, as I have tried deleting and re-entering a back-dated transaction for a security-at-a-time to no avail, except when certain that violating transactions for all other securities were removed.
    Finally in regard to "N/A", their most common appearance to me is in a Reinvest (Int/Div/Long CG/Short CG) transaction, where proceeds from a sale go directly toward a new buy, with no cash impact, which of course makes absolute sense. Most times the "N/A" is benign, but some instances, it can be quite malignant.
  • markus1957
    markus1957 SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2019


    This is a persistent bug in Quicken, going back many versions, including v2013r12, which is what I'm running. That said, I have found a workaround to get the register to debit the cash balance in the account instead of reporting the profoundly annoying "N/A". This may not work for all situations, but it did for mine, in which I realized I was missing a couple transactions that had been "covered up" by a couple placeholder entries. The real transactions were more than a year old. When I entered the original dates to create the missing transactions, I would get the "N/A" appearing in the Cash Amount field. In entering this transaction, it would ask me if I was sure I wanted to create a transaction that was more than a year old... Hmmm. So this is what I found worked:


    1) Enter the missing original transaction information (fund, shares, cash amount, etc.), except - enter today's date. The "N/A" no longer appears in the Cash Amount field, and the cash balance for the account is correctly debited.



    2) Change the date of the now-correct transaction to the original/actual date, and verify the Cash Amount remains.


    3) Delete the erroneous transaction with the "N/A" in the Cash Amount field to ensure the share balance remains correct.



    Hope this helps...

    Consider that the Reinvest N/A transactions are also remnant placeholder resolution entries. I have a feeling placeholder resolution entries are designed to be benign but given the fragile nature of the database, they add another potential breakage condition because they would appear to be linked in some fashion and also require special handling in the various queries that determine cash balance.

    I went thru my accounts and re-entered all N/A transactions. Not a single instance could be attributed to anything other than a placeholder resolution entry. I think as other SU's are trying to beat into our thick skulls, N/A is a universal indicator of a Placeholder entry (e.g., an initial "Adjust Share Balance" entry or the linked set of Action/XIn resolution entries created via the Enter Missing Transaction History process).
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