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MSGN historical price wrong on new purchase leads to $50000 loss on new purchase

btrcane
btrcane Member ✭✭
edited October 2018 in Investing (Windows)

quicken premiere 2015 never owned stock before


image

Comments

  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited October 2018
    I have the same question but I can add more information to see if someone can answer it for us. Madison Square Garden (MSG) did a spin off. However, the OLD company took a NEW symbol - MSGN - while the NEW company took the OLD symbol  (MSG).  This is in part why the historical price is wrong. The relative shares in each company also got convoluted. Instead of an approximately 3:1 spinoff, the company positioned it as a 1:3. Quicken seemed to have trouble with this as the MSG/MSGN procedure seemed to be backwards from how these transactions are normally done. To make it worse, the original MSG was a spinoff from Cablevision years ago, so when we entered the new spinoff per Quicken instructions the system went back and recalculated the basis of any Cablevision shares at their time of purchase to reflect the MSG spinoff and then the MSGN transaction. So now there are two problems. Taken together, the total basis for all the stock is correct as near as I can tell. But, the basis and trends for MSG and MSGN are way off. Also - whenever  MSGN is missing a stock update, Quicken goes back and fills in a quote for MSG, even though MSGN took over at the beginning of October. So, the question is: How we we stop the MSG historical price being loaded for missing MSGN prices? That seems to be Quicken problem that should not be happening. The second, broader question is: Is there any way we can delete the original input for the MSG/MSGN spinoff? In retrospect, I think if I had handled the spinoff by first calling it a stock split and then handling the spinoff in the opposite way from how it actually happened, I think all would be well. Thanks for your time.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited July 2016
    GNY said:

    I have the same question but I can add more information to see if someone can answer it for us. Madison Square Garden (MSG) did a spin off. However, the OLD company took a NEW symbol - MSGN - while the NEW company took the OLD symbol  (MSG).  This is in part why the historical price is wrong. The relative shares in each company also got convoluted. Instead of an approximately 3:1 spinoff, the company positioned it as a 1:3. Quicken seemed to have trouble with this as the MSG/MSGN procedure seemed to be backwards from how these transactions are normally done. To make it worse, the original MSG was a spinoff from Cablevision years ago, so when we entered the new spinoff per Quicken instructions the system went back and recalculated the basis of any Cablevision shares at their time of purchase to reflect the MSG spinoff and then the MSGN transaction. So now there are two problems. Taken together, the total basis for all the stock is correct as near as I can tell. But, the basis and trends for MSG and MSGN are way off. Also - whenever  MSGN is missing a stock update, Quicken goes back and fills in a quote for MSG, even though MSGN took over at the beginning of October. So, the question is: How we we stop the MSG historical price being loaded for missing MSGN prices? That seems to be Quicken problem that should not be happening. The second, broader question is: Is there any way we can delete the original input for the MSG/MSGN spinoff? In retrospect, I think if I had handled the spinoff by first calling it a stock split and then handling the spinoff in the opposite way from how it actually happened, I think all would be well. Thanks for your time.

    I got to the point where I just removed the symbol for MSGN because Intuit isn't very responsive in fixing things.
  • NotACPA
    NotACPA SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited October 2018
    GNY has come up with what appears to be an EXCELLENT answer.  I pulled the stock quote, and chart, for MSGN, and can find no price over about $26 in the chart ... but the "52 Week High" says $87.27.  That's pretty good evidence of a "Corporate Action" of some sort.

    See the attached graphic.

    image
    Q user since DOS version 5
    Now running Quicken Windows Subscription,  Home & Business
    Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP
  • NotACPA
    NotACPA SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2016
    GNY said:

    I have the same question but I can add more information to see if someone can answer it for us. Madison Square Garden (MSG) did a spin off. However, the OLD company took a NEW symbol - MSGN - while the NEW company took the OLD symbol  (MSG).  This is in part why the historical price is wrong. The relative shares in each company also got convoluted. Instead of an approximately 3:1 spinoff, the company positioned it as a 1:3. Quicken seemed to have trouble with this as the MSG/MSGN procedure seemed to be backwards from how these transactions are normally done. To make it worse, the original MSG was a spinoff from Cablevision years ago, so when we entered the new spinoff per Quicken instructions the system went back and recalculated the basis of any Cablevision shares at their time of purchase to reflect the MSG spinoff and then the MSGN transaction. So now there are two problems. Taken together, the total basis for all the stock is correct as near as I can tell. But, the basis and trends for MSG and MSGN are way off. Also - whenever  MSGN is missing a stock update, Quicken goes back and fills in a quote for MSG, even though MSGN took over at the beginning of October. So, the question is: How we we stop the MSG historical price being loaded for missing MSGN prices? That seems to be Quicken problem that should not be happening. The second, broader question is: Is there any way we can delete the original input for the MSG/MSGN spinoff? In retrospect, I think if I had handled the spinoff by first calling it a stock split and then handling the spinoff in the opposite way from how it actually happened, I think all would be well. Thanks for your time.

    Intuit merely relays the quotes.  A third party provider actually supplies them.
    Q user since DOS version 5
    Now running Quicken Windows Subscription,  Home & Business
    Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP
  • btrcane
    btrcane Member ✭✭
    edited July 2016

    GNY has come up with what appears to be an EXCELLENT answer.  I pulled the stock quote, and chart, for MSGN, and can find no price over about $26 in the chart ... but the "52 Week High" says $87.27.  That's pretty good evidence of a "Corporate Action" of some sort.

    See the attached graphic.

    image

    Price history supplied by quicken was $169 at time of purchase
  • btrcane
    btrcane Member ✭✭
    edited July 2016
    GNY said:

    I have the same question but I can add more information to see if someone can answer it for us. Madison Square Garden (MSG) did a spin off. However, the OLD company took a NEW symbol - MSGN - while the NEW company took the OLD symbol  (MSG).  This is in part why the historical price is wrong. The relative shares in each company also got convoluted. Instead of an approximately 3:1 spinoff, the company positioned it as a 1:3. Quicken seemed to have trouble with this as the MSG/MSGN procedure seemed to be backwards from how these transactions are normally done. To make it worse, the original MSG was a spinoff from Cablevision years ago, so when we entered the new spinoff per Quicken instructions the system went back and recalculated the basis of any Cablevision shares at their time of purchase to reflect the MSG spinoff and then the MSGN transaction. So now there are two problems. Taken together, the total basis for all the stock is correct as near as I can tell. But, the basis and trends for MSG and MSGN are way off. Also - whenever  MSGN is missing a stock update, Quicken goes back and fills in a quote for MSG, even though MSGN took over at the beginning of October. So, the question is: How we we stop the MSG historical price being loaded for missing MSGN prices? That seems to be Quicken problem that should not be happening. The second, broader question is: Is there any way we can delete the original input for the MSG/MSGN spinoff? In retrospect, I think if I had handled the spinoff by first calling it a stock split and then handling the spinoff in the opposite way from how it actually happened, I think all would be well. Thanks for your time.

    I figured that was problem no longer own MSGN
  • btrcane
    btrcane Member ✭✭
    edited July 2016
    GNY said:

    I have the same question but I can add more information to see if someone can answer it for us. Madison Square Garden (MSG) did a spin off. However, the OLD company took a NEW symbol - MSGN - while the NEW company took the OLD symbol  (MSG).  This is in part why the historical price is wrong. The relative shares in each company also got convoluted. Instead of an approximately 3:1 spinoff, the company positioned it as a 1:3. Quicken seemed to have trouble with this as the MSG/MSGN procedure seemed to be backwards from how these transactions are normally done. To make it worse, the original MSG was a spinoff from Cablevision years ago, so when we entered the new spinoff per Quicken instructions the system went back and recalculated the basis of any Cablevision shares at their time of purchase to reflect the MSG spinoff and then the MSGN transaction. So now there are two problems. Taken together, the total basis for all the stock is correct as near as I can tell. But, the basis and trends for MSG and MSGN are way off. Also - whenever  MSGN is missing a stock update, Quicken goes back and fills in a quote for MSG, even though MSGN took over at the beginning of October. So, the question is: How we we stop the MSG historical price being loaded for missing MSGN prices? That seems to be Quicken problem that should not be happening. The second, broader question is: Is there any way we can delete the original input for the MSG/MSGN spinoff? In retrospect, I think if I had handled the spinoff by first calling it a stock split and then handling the spinoff in the opposite way from how it actually happened, I think all would be well. Thanks for your time.

    I also removed MSGN from my portfolio
  • NotACPA
    NotACPA SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2016

    GNY has come up with what appears to be an EXCELLENT answer.  I pulled the stock quote, and chart, for MSGN, and can find no price over about $26 in the chart ... but the "52 Week High" says $87.27.  That's pretty good evidence of a "Corporate Action" of some sort.

    See the attached graphic.

    image

    Price history is controlled, for the transaction, by 1 of 2 sources: 1) what you input if you manually enter the transaction, or 2) what your broker downloads as the price of the transaction.   Neither is Intuit.
    Q user since DOS version 5
    Now running Quicken Windows Subscription,  Home & Business
    Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP
  • btrcane
    btrcane Member ✭✭
    edited July 2016

    GNY has come up with what appears to be an EXCELLENT answer.  I pulled the stock quote, and chart, for MSGN, and can find no price over about $26 in the chart ... but the "52 Week High" says $87.27.  That's pretty good evidence of a "Corporate Action" of some sort.

    See the attached graphic.

    image

    broker is correct quicken or quicken quote service overrides it
  • NotACPA
    NotACPA SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2016

    GNY has come up with what appears to be an EXCELLENT answer.  I pulled the stock quote, and chart, for MSGN, and can find no price over about $26 in the chart ... but the "52 Week High" says $87.27.  That's pretty good evidence of a "Corporate Action" of some sort.

    See the attached graphic.

    image

    Not true.  Broker, and actual transaction, always rule.
    Q user since DOS version 5
    Now running Quicken Windows Subscription,  Home & Business
    Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP
  • NotACPA
    NotACPA SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2016

    GNY has come up with what appears to be an EXCELLENT answer.  I pulled the stock quote, and chart, for MSGN, and can find no price over about $26 in the chart ... but the "52 Week High" says $87.27.  That's pretty good evidence of a "Corporate Action" of some sort.

    See the attached graphic.

    image

    Did you own MSGN before, after, or during the Corporate Action/ Re-organization?
    Q user since DOS version 5
    Now running Quicken Windows Subscription,  Home & Business
    Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited July 2016

    GNY has come up with what appears to be an EXCELLENT answer.  I pulled the stock quote, and chart, for MSGN, and can find no price over about $26 in the chart ... but the "52 Week High" says $87.27.  That's pretty good evidence of a "Corporate Action" of some sort.

    See the attached graphic.

    image

    I owned MSGN before the spin off and added to my position a few weeks after the spin off.  I had the problem since the spin off was completed.  If you over ride the price from the download it stays correct the day you over ride it, but the following day Quicken changes the correct price back to the price it initially downloaded for MSGN which is MSG's price which was spun off but kept the MSG symbol.  Quicken only changes the day before the download date to an incorrect price so it doesn't screw up the entire history of MSGN prices.  But pain in the rear to correct every time my portfolio is updated.
  • btrcane
    btrcane Member ✭✭
    edited July 2016

    GNY has come up with what appears to be an EXCELLENT answer.  I pulled the stock quote, and chart, for MSGN, and can find no price over about $26 in the chart ... but the "52 Week High" says $87.27.  That's pretty good evidence of a "Corporate Action" of some sort.

    See the attached graphic.

    image

    I agree did the same review of price hx on edit security screen never changed just carried as placemaker till gave up
  • btrcane
    btrcane Member ✭✭
    edited July 2016

    GNY has come up with what appears to be an EXCELLENT answer.  I pulled the stock quote, and chart, for MSGN, and can find no price over about $26 in the chart ... but the "52 Week High" says $87.27.  That's pretty good evidence of a "Corporate Action" of some sort.

    See the attached graphic.

    image

    never owned before recent purchase
  • NotACPA
    NotACPA SuperUser, Windows Beta Beta
    edited December 2016

    GNY has come up with what appears to be an EXCELLENT answer.  I pulled the stock quote, and chart, for MSGN, and can find no price over about $26 in the chart ... but the "52 Week High" says $87.27.  That's pretty good evidence of a "Corporate Action" of some sort.

    See the attached graphic.

    image

    "never owned before recent purchase" doesn't answer the questions asked.
    Q user since DOS version 5
    Now running Quicken Windows Subscription,  Home & Business
    Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP
  • btrcane
    btrcane Member ✭✭
    edited July 2016

    GNY has come up with what appears to be an EXCELLENT answer.  I pulled the stock quote, and chart, for MSGN, and can find no price over about $26 in the chart ... but the "52 Week High" says $87.27.  That's pretty good evidence of a "Corporate Action" of some sort.

    See the attached graphic.

    image

    manually added transaction from broker sheet but program changed price
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018

    There are really two issues at play here - the spinoff and changes to name and ticker, and the pricing the downloads into Quicken.  


    I think GNY has a reasonable summary of the situation, but I will recap:  a) the original holding "The Madison Square Garden Company" renamed itself MSG Networks, Inc. and simultaneously changed its NYSE ticker from MSG to MSGN; and b) the newly named MSG Networks Inc. then spun off a subsidiary they called The Madison Square Garden Company with that new company taking on the NYSE ticker MSG.   


    For this event in Quicken, I would proceed in three steps
    1. Rename the original holding to MSG Networks.  This can be done by editing the security details working from the security list , or there is a Corporate Name Change 'transaction' that can be entered in a brokerage account transaction list (Enter Transactions button).
    2. Re-ticker that security changing the ticker from MSG to MSGN.  This needs to be done through the Edit Security options.  Type in a new ticker over the old.  In doing so, you will have to optional selections.  I would 'check' to Copy quotes from MSG to MSGN.  I also would 'check' the selection to delete the quotes from MSG.  After those two steps, it will be as if the old name (The  Madison Square Garden Company or however you had it) never existed.  Neither will there be any price quotes in your Quicken file database for MSG.  All such prices will be associated to MSGN.  
    3. Now I would generate the spinoff as outlined below.
    I do not use the Corporate Spinoff macro-transaction available in Quicken.  I have had too many issues arise and errors develop.  I do not trust its methodologies, especially for more complex holdings.  Most of all, I do not like its backdating of transactions.


    Relative to this spinoff, I am referencing the Form 8937 from MSGN currently available here: http://investor.msgnetworks.com/  That document suggests the MSGN should retain 74.5% of the basis in the holdings and 25.5% of the basis should transfer to the new MSG holding.  Those percentages are not mandatory and you and/or your broker may use different specific ratios; your choice.    


    To generate this spinoff in Quicken, I would: 


    a)  Create a new Security in Quicken for the new 'The Madison Square Garden Company' with the (new) ticker MSG.  I would likely identify the company as (new) in the company name, however your name it.  Remember the old company and name and ticker are not in your data anymore.  


    b) Print a record or otherwise note the basis of each lot of MSGN owned after consideration of all prior related activity, such as the Cablevision spinoff GNY noted.  


    The following set of transactions would be dated 9/30/15


    c)  Enter a Remove Shares transaction for all shares of MSGN.  (Note that this is all following the renaming and retickering of the original holding.  You have just removed the shares you originally bought as MSG.)


    d)  For each lot of MSGN originally held, I would enter an Add Shares for the same number of MSGN shares and with the original acquisition date, with 74.5% of that lot's basis.  


    e)  Repeating for each lot of MSGN originally held, I would enter an Add Shares for the new MSG security for 1/3 as many shares (including fractions) as the MSGN lot size, with the original acquisition date, with 25.5% of that MSGN lot's basis.


    You now have your original number of MSGN shares carrying 75.5% of the prior basis and 1/3 as many MSG shares carrying 25.5% of the prior basis.  


    f)  If you are left with a fractional share of MSG, enter a Sell Shares transaction selling that fractional share for the cash-in-lieu amount you received.  You may have a small capital gain/loss associated with that sale.


    You should now have the correct number of shares of the proper securities as of 9/30/2015.  (Cash-in-lieu and fractional share sale credits may actually have flowed through a few days later.  No big deal.)


    Now that you have the correct holdings represented by the correct Quicken securities historically correct and with the proper basis for all lots, I'll head into some discussion on quotes in a separate 'answer'; I see it as a separate issue.  


    Caveats:  I am not a shareholder of these companies.  They are not and these transactions are not in my real data file.  Neither am I a tax pro, accountant, yada, yada, yada.  I am nameless faceless person on the internet with no credentials and no liability or responsibility.  Due your own due diligence.  


    Secondly, the above is not the only way through this process.  Other methods can be equally effective.  If you have a different way to attack this that suits your needs, do it.  If you want to bounce an idea off of me, I'd be happy to take a look and offer an opinion.  
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018

    The quotes / price issues:


    For reference, Quicken does have a hierarchy for the preferences of prices brought into the data:


    https://qlc.intuit.com/replies/323660



    Although that is dated back to the QW2012 version, as far as I know it still applies.  I am not positive that the list is totally infallible.  There may be circumstances that something takes precedence that should not.  


    In my test data file. I created the two companies with tickers MSGN (MSG Networks) and MSG (the new Madison Square Garden Co).  For both of those companies, prices auto-filled in back to 9/18/2015 with nothing before that.  


    The prices for MSG appeared correct through that period ranging around $155 to $175 per share and agreeing with Yahoo Finance on dates checked.  


    The prices for MSG were correct for the date (and time) of creation (about $20/share), but for all prior dates the prices matched the prices of MSGN (near $160/share).  


    My observations on downloading quotes is that most commonly a Download Historical Prices (DHP) request will fill in missing data - blank dates within it 30-day/1-year/5-year pattern of data.  If there is a manually entered price, the DHP will not override the manual entry.  This is consistent with the hierarchy cited above.  


    For the Downloading Quotes request (which at some point had implied or been stated as current quotes rather than historical), I see that data is filled in within the last 30 days.  It appears to be a set of current quotes (per the security list DQ check) and data back for a 30 calendar day period.  


    So as I see it:


    a)  the historical data being supplied for MSGN is incorrect.  Today's data is fine, yesterday's and all dates between yesterday and 9/18/15 are incorrect from the data supplier.  Since tomorrow, today's data will become yesterday's data, then tomorrow, the good data that Quicken has for today will be overwritten by bad data since today became yesterday.  (The Kingston Trio wrote a song about almost exactly that issue:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp88oumRQvs)


    b)  A user could import good historical data for MSGN for a period from long ago (well before 9/18/15) up to 9/17/15 and Quicken's DHP routine would (should currently) leave that old data intact.  


    c)  A user could import good historical data for MSGN for the period from 9/18/15 until up to 30 days ago, and that data would (should currently) stay intact as long as no historical prices were requested for a longer than 30 days ago.  If a longer period DHP request is made, those older downloaded prices will override the imported prices.


    d)  A user can manually enter prices for any prior date and I do not see those getting overridden by download quotes or Download Historical Prices requests.  So one could conceivably enter the correct data manually each day and have it stay.  From prior issues in this direction and not supported by this evenings testing, it may be that if you enter values manually during the trading day, those manual entry will not maintain their #1 spot in the hierarchy.  It may be that the sticky manual entry must be entered after the close and possibly on the 'next' day.  The premise would be that I cannot enter a final closing price at 10 AM; the downloaded closing price must be 'better' information.  


    All in all, until the data supplier gets the MSGN data straightened out, there are going to be problems.  Hopefully the above comments may help users develop workable strategies in the meantime.  
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited July 2016
    q.lurker said:


    There are really two issues at play here - the spinoff and changes to name and ticker, and the pricing the downloads into Quicken.  


    I think GNY has a reasonable summary of the situation, but I will recap:  a) the original holding "The Madison Square Garden Company" renamed itself MSG Networks, Inc. and simultaneously changed its NYSE ticker from MSG to MSGN; and b) the newly named MSG Networks Inc. then spun off a subsidiary they called The Madison Square Garden Company with that new company taking on the NYSE ticker MSG.   


    For this event in Quicken, I would proceed in three steps


    1. Rename the original holding to MSG Networks.  This can be done by editing the security details working from the security list , or there is a Corporate Name Change 'transaction' that can be entered in a brokerage account transaction list (Enter Transactions button).
    2. Re-ticker that security changing the ticker from MSG to MSGN.  This needs to be done through the Edit Security options.  Type in a new ticker over the old.  In doing so, you will have to optional selections.  I would 'check' to Copy quotes from MSG to MSGN.  I also would 'check' the selection to delete the quotes from MSG.  After those two steps, it will be as if the old name (The  Madison Square Garden Company or however you had it) never existed.  Neither will there be any price quotes in your Quicken file database for MSG.  All such prices will be associated to MSGN.  
    3. Now I would generate the spinoff as outlined below.
    I do not use the Corporate Spinoff macro-transaction available in Quicken.  I have had too many issues arise and errors develop.  I do not trust its methodologies, especially for more complex holdings.  Most of all, I do not like its backdating of transactions.


    Relative to this spinoff, I am referencing the Form 8937 from MSGN currently available here: http://investor.msgnetworks.com/  That document suggests the MSGN should retain 74.5% of the basis in the holdings and 25.5% of the basis should transfer to the new MSG holding.  Those percentages are not mandatory and you and/or your broker may use different specific ratios; your choice.    


    To generate this spinoff in Quicken, I would: 


    a)  Create a new Security in Quicken for the new 'The Madison Square Garden Company' with the (new) ticker MSG.  I would likely identify the company as (new) in the company name, however your name it.  Remember the old company and name and ticker are not in your data anymore.  


    b) Print a record or otherwise note the basis of each lot of MSGN owned after consideration of all prior related activity, such as the Cablevision spinoff GNY noted.  


    The following set of transactions would be dated 9/30/15


    c)  Enter a Remove Shares transaction for all shares of MSGN.  (Note that this is all following the renaming and retickering of the original holding.  You have just removed the shares you originally bought as MSG.)


    d)  For each lot of MSGN originally held, I would enter an Add Shares for the same number of MSGN shares and with the original acquisition date, with 74.5% of that lot's basis.  


    e)  Repeating for each lot of MSGN originally held, I would enter an Add Shares for the new MSG security for 1/3 as many shares (including fractions) as the MSGN lot size, with the original acquisition date, with 25.5% of that MSGN lot's basis.


    You now have your original number of MSGN shares carrying 75.5% of the prior basis and 1/3 as many MSG shares carrying 25.5% of the prior basis.  


    f)  If you are left with a fractional share of MSG, enter a Sell Shares transaction selling that fractional share for the cash-in-lieu amount you received.  You may have a small capital gain/loss associated with that sale.


    You should now have the correct number of shares of the proper securities as of 9/30/2015.  (Cash-in-lieu and fractional share sale credits may actually have flowed through a few days later.  No big deal.)


    Now that you have the correct holdings represented by the correct Quicken securities historically correct and with the proper basis for all lots, I'll head into some discussion on quotes in a separate 'answer'; I see it as a separate issue.  


    Caveats:  I am not a shareholder of these companies.  They are not and these transactions are not in my real data file.  Neither am I a tax pro, accountant, yada, yada, yada.  I am nameless faceless person on the internet with no credentials and no liability or responsibility.  Due your own due diligence.  


    Secondly, the above is not the only way through this process.  Other methods can be equally effective.  If you have a different way to attack this that suits your needs, do it.  If you want to bounce an idea off of me, I'd be happy to take a look and offer an opinion.  
    Thanks to all for their useful responses to this issue. A great, passionate community and very helpful. In my particular situation, I originally acquired Cablevision shares in monthly allotments over the space of several years. Given the subsequent splits and spinoffs from this original Cablevision stock over the following 20 years, I decided that trying to manually input every transaction as described here would be too much of a bear to attempt. Instead, I went with the simple route. I deleted MSGN from my online quote update list and instead download it directly from my broker. While this does cause some issues in terms of separating MSGN price updates from the rest of my portfolio, it did solve the problem of loading incorrect history. So, at least my trends are OK from the time that MSG became MSGN, and the MSG quotes remain accurate.
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    q.lurker said:


    There are really two issues at play here - the spinoff and changes to name and ticker, and the pricing the downloads into Quicken.  


    I think GNY has a reasonable summary of the situation, but I will recap:  a) the original holding "The Madison Square Garden Company" renamed itself MSG Networks, Inc. and simultaneously changed its NYSE ticker from MSG to MSGN; and b) the newly named MSG Networks Inc. then spun off a subsidiary they called The Madison Square Garden Company with that new company taking on the NYSE ticker MSG.   


    For this event in Quicken, I would proceed in three steps


    1. Rename the original holding to MSG Networks.  This can be done by editing the security details working from the security list , or there is a Corporate Name Change 'transaction' that can be entered in a brokerage account transaction list (Enter Transactions button).
    2. Re-ticker that security changing the ticker from MSG to MSGN.  This needs to be done through the Edit Security options.  Type in a new ticker over the old.  In doing so, you will have to optional selections.  I would 'check' to Copy quotes from MSG to MSGN.  I also would 'check' the selection to delete the quotes from MSG.  After those two steps, it will be as if the old name (The  Madison Square Garden Company or however you had it) never existed.  Neither will there be any price quotes in your Quicken file database for MSG.  All such prices will be associated to MSGN.  
    3. Now I would generate the spinoff as outlined below.
    I do not use the Corporate Spinoff macro-transaction available in Quicken.  I have had too many issues arise and errors develop.  I do not trust its methodologies, especially for more complex holdings.  Most of all, I do not like its backdating of transactions.


    Relative to this spinoff, I am referencing the Form 8937 from MSGN currently available here: http://investor.msgnetworks.com/  That document suggests the MSGN should retain 74.5% of the basis in the holdings and 25.5% of the basis should transfer to the new MSG holding.  Those percentages are not mandatory and you and/or your broker may use different specific ratios; your choice.    


    To generate this spinoff in Quicken, I would: 


    a)  Create a new Security in Quicken for the new 'The Madison Square Garden Company' with the (new) ticker MSG.  I would likely identify the company as (new) in the company name, however your name it.  Remember the old company and name and ticker are not in your data anymore.  


    b) Print a record or otherwise note the basis of each lot of MSGN owned after consideration of all prior related activity, such as the Cablevision spinoff GNY noted.  


    The following set of transactions would be dated 9/30/15


    c)  Enter a Remove Shares transaction for all shares of MSGN.  (Note that this is all following the renaming and retickering of the original holding.  You have just removed the shares you originally bought as MSG.)


    d)  For each lot of MSGN originally held, I would enter an Add Shares for the same number of MSGN shares and with the original acquisition date, with 74.5% of that lot's basis.  


    e)  Repeating for each lot of MSGN originally held, I would enter an Add Shares for the new MSG security for 1/3 as many shares (including fractions) as the MSGN lot size, with the original acquisition date, with 25.5% of that MSGN lot's basis.


    You now have your original number of MSGN shares carrying 75.5% of the prior basis and 1/3 as many MSG shares carrying 25.5% of the prior basis.  


    f)  If you are left with a fractional share of MSG, enter a Sell Shares transaction selling that fractional share for the cash-in-lieu amount you received.  You may have a small capital gain/loss associated with that sale.


    You should now have the correct number of shares of the proper securities as of 9/30/2015.  (Cash-in-lieu and fractional share sale credits may actually have flowed through a few days later.  No big deal.)


    Now that you have the correct holdings represented by the correct Quicken securities historically correct and with the proper basis for all lots, I'll head into some discussion on quotes in a separate 'answer'; I see it as a separate issue.  


    Caveats:  I am not a shareholder of these companies.  They are not and these transactions are not in my real data file.  Neither am I a tax pro, accountant, yada, yada, yada.  I am nameless faceless person on the internet with no credentials and no liability or responsibility.  Due your own due diligence.  


    Secondly, the above is not the only way through this process.  Other methods can be equally effective.  If you have a different way to attack this that suits your needs, do it.  If you want to bounce an idea off of me, I'd be happy to take a look and offer an opinion.  
    It now appears to me that the pricing of MSGN has been corrected -- with a caveat.  The pre-split/spinoff prices being downloaded as historical prices (those before 10/1/2015) are downloading as adjusted values ($20 - 25 range) rather than the raw trading date values (~$70).  Downloading such adjusted historical values should not change values already in your database, but IMO (and the subject is debatable), it is incorrect to have the adjusted values downloaded.  If you head that direction, you may want to backup first so that you have a clear recovery point.

    [mention://71537 @GNY] :  Did you have the correct lot representations of MSG (the 'orignal') in your database as of 9/30/15 -- pre-split and spin?  If so, there may be some tricks available to get all the details worked over for a many-lot holding.  If you're interested.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited July 2016
    q.lurker said:


    There are really two issues at play here - the spinoff and changes to name and ticker, and the pricing the downloads into Quicken.  


    I think GNY has a reasonable summary of the situation, but I will recap:  a) the original holding "The Madison Square Garden Company" renamed itself MSG Networks, Inc. and simultaneously changed its NYSE ticker from MSG to MSGN; and b) the newly named MSG Networks Inc. then spun off a subsidiary they called The Madison Square Garden Company with that new company taking on the NYSE ticker MSG.   


    For this event in Quicken, I would proceed in three steps


    1. Rename the original holding to MSG Networks.  This can be done by editing the security details working from the security list , or there is a Corporate Name Change 'transaction' that can be entered in a brokerage account transaction list (Enter Transactions button).
    2. Re-ticker that security changing the ticker from MSG to MSGN.  This needs to be done through the Edit Security options.  Type in a new ticker over the old.  In doing so, you will have to optional selections.  I would 'check' to Copy quotes from MSG to MSGN.  I also would 'check' the selection to delete the quotes from MSG.  After those two steps, it will be as if the old name (The  Madison Square Garden Company or however you had it) never existed.  Neither will there be any price quotes in your Quicken file database for MSG.  All such prices will be associated to MSGN.  
    3. Now I would generate the spinoff as outlined below.
    I do not use the Corporate Spinoff macro-transaction available in Quicken.  I have had too many issues arise and errors develop.  I do not trust its methodologies, especially for more complex holdings.  Most of all, I do not like its backdating of transactions.


    Relative to this spinoff, I am referencing the Form 8937 from MSGN currently available here: http://investor.msgnetworks.com/  That document suggests the MSGN should retain 74.5% of the basis in the holdings and 25.5% of the basis should transfer to the new MSG holding.  Those percentages are not mandatory and you and/or your broker may use different specific ratios; your choice.    


    To generate this spinoff in Quicken, I would: 


    a)  Create a new Security in Quicken for the new 'The Madison Square Garden Company' with the (new) ticker MSG.  I would likely identify the company as (new) in the company name, however your name it.  Remember the old company and name and ticker are not in your data anymore.  


    b) Print a record or otherwise note the basis of each lot of MSGN owned after consideration of all prior related activity, such as the Cablevision spinoff GNY noted.  


    The following set of transactions would be dated 9/30/15


    c)  Enter a Remove Shares transaction for all shares of MSGN.  (Note that this is all following the renaming and retickering of the original holding.  You have just removed the shares you originally bought as MSG.)


    d)  For each lot of MSGN originally held, I would enter an Add Shares for the same number of MSGN shares and with the original acquisition date, with 74.5% of that lot's basis.  


    e)  Repeating for each lot of MSGN originally held, I would enter an Add Shares for the new MSG security for 1/3 as many shares (including fractions) as the MSGN lot size, with the original acquisition date, with 25.5% of that MSGN lot's basis.


    You now have your original number of MSGN shares carrying 75.5% of the prior basis and 1/3 as many MSG shares carrying 25.5% of the prior basis.  


    f)  If you are left with a fractional share of MSG, enter a Sell Shares transaction selling that fractional share for the cash-in-lieu amount you received.  You may have a small capital gain/loss associated with that sale.


    You should now have the correct number of shares of the proper securities as of 9/30/2015.  (Cash-in-lieu and fractional share sale credits may actually have flowed through a few days later.  No big deal.)


    Now that you have the correct holdings represented by the correct Quicken securities historically correct and with the proper basis for all lots, I'll head into some discussion on quotes in a separate 'answer'; I see it as a separate issue.  


    Caveats:  I am not a shareholder of these companies.  They are not and these transactions are not in my real data file.  Neither am I a tax pro, accountant, yada, yada, yada.  I am nameless faceless person on the internet with no credentials and no liability or responsibility.  Due your own due diligence.  


    Secondly, the above is not the only way through this process.  Other methods can be equally effective.  If you have a different way to attack this that suits your needs, do it.  If you want to bounce an idea off of me, I'd be happy to take a look and offer an opinion.  
    Thanks for the additional info. I will make a back-up and then try the historical price download again. At least that might get me up to speed since the spin. Re your other question - Yes, I did have the MSG info up to date before the split to MSGN. My current basis costs seem to make sense so I may just deal with it as is. However, if there is a better way to get a more accurate historical valuation trend, as is usually the case when companies do these kinds of things the "normal" way, I'd be interested in knowing how -- but not if it takes you too much time. I do appreciate the offer and the help. Just don't want you to go to too much trouble to explain a strategy I may not wind up using.
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    q.lurker said:


    There are really two issues at play here - the spinoff and changes to name and ticker, and the pricing the downloads into Quicken.  


    I think GNY has a reasonable summary of the situation, but I will recap:  a) the original holding "The Madison Square Garden Company" renamed itself MSG Networks, Inc. and simultaneously changed its NYSE ticker from MSG to MSGN; and b) the newly named MSG Networks Inc. then spun off a subsidiary they called The Madison Square Garden Company with that new company taking on the NYSE ticker MSG.   


    For this event in Quicken, I would proceed in three steps


    1. Rename the original holding to MSG Networks.  This can be done by editing the security details working from the security list , or there is a Corporate Name Change 'transaction' that can be entered in a brokerage account transaction list (Enter Transactions button).
    2. Re-ticker that security changing the ticker from MSG to MSGN.  This needs to be done through the Edit Security options.  Type in a new ticker over the old.  In doing so, you will have to optional selections.  I would 'check' to Copy quotes from MSG to MSGN.  I also would 'check' the selection to delete the quotes from MSG.  After those two steps, it will be as if the old name (The  Madison Square Garden Company or however you had it) never existed.  Neither will there be any price quotes in your Quicken file database for MSG.  All such prices will be associated to MSGN.  
    3. Now I would generate the spinoff as outlined below.
    I do not use the Corporate Spinoff macro-transaction available in Quicken.  I have had too many issues arise and errors develop.  I do not trust its methodologies, especially for more complex holdings.  Most of all, I do not like its backdating of transactions.


    Relative to this spinoff, I am referencing the Form 8937 from MSGN currently available here: http://investor.msgnetworks.com/  That document suggests the MSGN should retain 74.5% of the basis in the holdings and 25.5% of the basis should transfer to the new MSG holding.  Those percentages are not mandatory and you and/or your broker may use different specific ratios; your choice.    


    To generate this spinoff in Quicken, I would: 


    a)  Create a new Security in Quicken for the new 'The Madison Square Garden Company' with the (new) ticker MSG.  I would likely identify the company as (new) in the company name, however your name it.  Remember the old company and name and ticker are not in your data anymore.  


    b) Print a record or otherwise note the basis of each lot of MSGN owned after consideration of all prior related activity, such as the Cablevision spinoff GNY noted.  


    The following set of transactions would be dated 9/30/15


    c)  Enter a Remove Shares transaction for all shares of MSGN.  (Note that this is all following the renaming and retickering of the original holding.  You have just removed the shares you originally bought as MSG.)


    d)  For each lot of MSGN originally held, I would enter an Add Shares for the same number of MSGN shares and with the original acquisition date, with 74.5% of that lot's basis.  


    e)  Repeating for each lot of MSGN originally held, I would enter an Add Shares for the new MSG security for 1/3 as many shares (including fractions) as the MSGN lot size, with the original acquisition date, with 25.5% of that MSGN lot's basis.


    You now have your original number of MSGN shares carrying 75.5% of the prior basis and 1/3 as many MSG shares carrying 25.5% of the prior basis.  


    f)  If you are left with a fractional share of MSG, enter a Sell Shares transaction selling that fractional share for the cash-in-lieu amount you received.  You may have a small capital gain/loss associated with that sale.


    You should now have the correct number of shares of the proper securities as of 9/30/2015.  (Cash-in-lieu and fractional share sale credits may actually have flowed through a few days later.  No big deal.)


    Now that you have the correct holdings represented by the correct Quicken securities historically correct and with the proper basis for all lots, I'll head into some discussion on quotes in a separate 'answer'; I see it as a separate issue.  


    Caveats:  I am not a shareholder of these companies.  They are not and these transactions are not in my real data file.  Neither am I a tax pro, accountant, yada, yada, yada.  I am nameless faceless person on the internet with no credentials and no liability or responsibility.  Due your own due diligence.  


    Secondly, the above is not the only way through this process.  Other methods can be equally effective.  If you have a different way to attack this that suits your needs, do it.  If you want to bounce an idea off of me, I'd be happy to take a look and offer an opinion.  
    The gist of my 'many-lot' procedure is to
    a) create a temporary working space brokerage account
    b) transfer your shares of MSG (the original) to that account as of 9/30 -- this will be a Remove Shares in the original account and multiple (for each lot) Add Shares in the temporary account
    c) in that temporary account, use the Corporate Spinoff to generate the spinoff part (call it MSG-New).  YOu now have the correct shares in this temporary account but a bunch of poorly date (IMO) RtrnCap and Buy Shares transactions creating those shares by lots.
    d) Use the Shares Transferred to move both sets of shares from the temporary account back to the original account.  Relevant to these companies in that real account, you now have the one Remove shares and a whole bunch Add Shares all with correct basis and original acquisition dates.  
    e)  Delete the temporary account.  

    The trick in your MSG case is to keep the corporate names and tickers straight as you do that.
This discussion has been closed.