Default Lot Identification (21 Legacy Votes)

ken jacobs

Allow me to set up a DEFAULT of FIFO (first in, first out) for securities.   As it is now, if there are multiple lots of securities and some are sold, unless average cost is in effect, I have to identify for each sale, the lot from which it is taken.   This is very burdensome when many small trades take place for a security where there are many lots.  I would like to be able to specify FIFO as the default for a particular security, or for a particular account (thereby covering all securities).   This would be very helpful for mutual funds or actively managed brokerage accounts.

Note: this request has been made many times over many years.  I found one from five years ago.

PLEASE do something about this nagging and annoying irritation.

Quicken Dave

Hi Ken,

Thank you for taking the time to share your idea. To make sure the idea gets to the right development team, please let us know what Quicken product (QWin or QMac) and what version (2015, 2016, etc.) you are using. Also, are you using Quicken or Quicken Canada?

Thanks,
Dave

UKR

In Edit Security Details view for a selected security and if the Security Type is Mutual Fund, you have a selection "Use Average Cost" that you can check (or not).

For other Security Types: When you enter a Sell transaction and do not click on "Specify Lots", the default is FIFO (and has been for years, AFAIK, and unless someone changed that recently. Can't think of a good reason why, though)
From Quicken Help about selling securities ...

q_lurker

UKR said:

In Edit Security Details view for a selected security and if the Security Type is Mutual Fund, you have a selection "Use Average Cost" that you can check (or not).

For other Security Types: When you enter a Sell transaction and do not click on "Specify Lots", the default is FIFO (and has been for years, AFAIK, and unless someone changed that recently. Can't think of a good reason why, though)
From Quicken Help about selling securities ...

To extend ukr's comment, if you are wanting the default FIFO, when presented with the pop-up question about specifying lots, you only need to click the OK button.  The FIFO default will be applied to the transaction.  You do not need to enter into the form where the lots can be selected individually.  (Perhaps interestingly, the pop-up only appears when accepting and processing downloaded transactions.  It does not come into play for manually entered transactions.)  

This is not to denigrate your Idea.  Based on the depth and history of complaints about this behavior, I think it should be changed.  I do think too much complexity (option on a security basis) could have ramifications that would be risky and could become very confusing.  For example, what would the decision process be when someone changed the setting for a security from FIFO to Min taxes?  Would that apply retroactively to prior unspecified transactions?  To do so could have significant unforeseen ramifications.

At this stage, also considering the manual entry behavior, I think I'd lean toward giving the option to prompt for the question or default to FIFO as is already the default.  

woodrr

The foregoing comments about an automatic preference for FIFO has been identified as a nagging question for many years.  Do the Quicken developers have an open project to address the question?

gmalis1

woodrr said:

The foregoing comments about an automatic preference for FIFO has been identified as a nagging question for many years.  Do the Quicken developers have an open project to address the question?

No one knows what Quicken is working on...what the time frame is...what's in the "To Do" box.

Quicken Inc never reveals what they are working on.  

smayer97

woodrr said:

The foregoing comments about an automatic preference for FIFO has been identified as a nagging question for many years.  Do the Quicken developers have an open project to address the question?

not 'never' but quite rare.

gmalis1

woodrr said:

The foregoing comments about an automatic preference for FIFO has been identified as a nagging question for many years.  Do the Quicken developers have an open project to address the question?

You're right.  They told us to be aware of a new update before the end of September to convert to a Quicken ID.

Big deal. 

smayer97

woodrr said:

The foregoing comments about an automatic preference for FIFO has been identified as a nagging question for many years.  Do the Quicken developers have an open project to address the question?

They also told us they were working on Investments (released for 2015), on some of the already released reports (for 2016), Loan Amortization(for 2017),  and of course the redesign of reports overall (for possibly 2018?), just to name a few.

But overall, not many things.

rgiaimo1

woodrr said:

The foregoing comments about an automatic preference for FIFO has been identified as a nagging question for many years.  Do the Quicken developers have an open project to address the question?

I've been using Quicken for 18 years, and that 'specify lots' dialog is a royal pain.  I trade a lot, and most of my sells are not for the full position.  So, the 'specify lots' modal pops up a lot!  I just want to hit "Accept All" and have everything automatically FIFO.  Is that so hard?!?!?!?!?

Jim_Harman

The ability to set a default selection for which lots to sell is particularly timely, since the Senate tax reform bill has a provision which, if in the final version, would REQUIRE FIFO.

Bob Lampton

This was already scheduled to go into effect January 1, and was not part of the new tax bill.  I noticed lot identification is part of the 2018 editions, which means Quicken did not make the proper change to its software.  If you elect lot selection in Quicken other than FIFO then your capital gains reports will not match your broker's.

Bob Lampton

Jim Harman said:

The ability to set a default selection for which lots to sell is particularly timely, since the Senate tax reform bill has a provision which, if in the final version, would REQUIRE FIFO.

 This would especially create problems if you download your Quicken information into TurboTax.

Bob Lampton

Bob Lampton said:

This was already scheduled to go into effect January 1, and was not part of the new tax bill.  I noticed lot identification is part of the 2018 editions, which means Quicken did not make the proper change to its software.  If you elect lot selection in Quicken other than FIFO then your capital gains reports will not match your broker's.

This would especially create problems if you download your Quicken information into TurboTax.

Jim_Harman

Bob,



I'm not sure I follow you. The FIFO requirement is not in the tax law as passed. People still have the opportunity to pick which lots to sell, so the ability to set a default order for each account would would still be a useful feature in Quicken.

Bob Lampton

Both my CPA and broker have told me - for tax purposes - that FIFO is now the default for IRS purposes.  You're correct when you say it was not part of the tax bill.  It was already set to begin January 1, before the new bill was even drafted.

Bob Lampton

Mr. Harman, and all others who have read this post, you are absolutely correct.  The rule to use FIFO in lot identification was initially part of the tax bill, but was dropped at the last minute.  I spoke to another CPA today who set me straight.  Mea culpa.

JGumby

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Need a Preference Setting for Lot Identification Strategies, i.e. First In, to El....


Why do I need to constantly specify a lot method. It seems I should be able to make a preference setting that would always be used so I wouldn't need to constantly be prompted to select a lot strategy like First In, etc. I currently have 42 sold stock lots that I need to go into each one individually and specify the method which will always be the same (First In). It will take me upwards of an hour just to do this one download. If I could set a preference and let it ride, I wouldn't need to go through this painful experience every time I download sold stock.

K.O. (Win-Premier)

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Default Lot.


Totally agree.  I've sent the same suggestion in myself.  It would need to be at the account level so that different accounts (i.e. IRA vs margin accounts) can have different defaults.

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: Need a Preference Setting for Lot Identification Strategies, i.e. First In, to El....

q_lurker

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Default Lot.

 I currently have 42 sold stock lots that I need to go into each one individually and specify the method which will always be the same (First In). It will take me upwards of an hour ...

Bull.  a) When you enter the transaction you have the option to specify lots and if you avoid that option, Quicken will default to your particular preference of FIFO.  b) If you are not entering the transactions until they get downloaded from the brokerage, then only sales of partial holdings from a multi-lot holding will prompt you for the lot specification (selling the entire holding or selling a partial holding from a one lot holding will not present a pop-up lot question).  For that pop-up situation because you are choosing the FIFO, all you need to dis click the OK.  No need to click the specify lots button and go that path.  "Upwards of an hour" is an over the top exaggeration unless there are other timing issues with your data file.  

I am not disputing the value of simplifying the process as suggested.  Only that the current process is not as onerous as you imply.  

Now if you are having 42 affected sales per day, per week, per month, and each specification is taking 1.5 minutes, then there may well be timing issues with your data file.  Perhaps because of transaction counts in an investment account (Quicken is not intended for day-traders or "active" traders) or due to some corruption issue in your file.  Both those are points for a different discussion.

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: Need a Preference Setting for Lot Identification Strategies, i.e. First In, to El....

JGumby

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Default Lots.


That sounds like a reply I would've expected from Intuit in the old days. I guess not much has changed, if you're even an employee. You can either add the feature or not, I'll continue forward either way. Software exists to help humans eliminate repetitive tasks, if it doesn't do that it doesn't do it's basic function. I have been using Quicken for active trading and all my banking needs since 1997, and yes the database, although probably slower than an empty one, still works fine. I find it pretty short sighted that you're telling me how Quicken wasn't designed for what I've been doing for 20 years.

This issue has always been a pain, but tolerable. It just so happens my new broker tends to sell in many lots. A sale of 6 positions resulted in 44 lots. Only two could be resolved automatically (plus the last lot of each position), the remaining required intervention. If you need an example of the feature, maybe you can find an old version of MS Money. As a user, I would spend the money to upgrade even if this was the only feature offered. I would also upgrade for an option where I could elect to have securities automatically added to reports (like they used to be by-the-way).

Either way, you take it into consideration or not, it doesn't matter to me how you run your company. If you prefer to alienate your customers, then you've done a good job. I don't think I'll be returning. 

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: Need a Preference Setting for Lot Identification Strategies, i.e. First In, to El....

K.O. (Win-Premier)

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Default Lots.


OK ... I'm going to step into the firestorm here and try and bring this back to the issue.  Regardless of the number of times and the amount of time it takes there is a valid business case to have default Tax Lot settings per account.

For most retirement accounts it is allocated one way (FIFO) and for margin accounts many users choose least gain because it's more tax beneficial.  Currently in Quicken the problem is that if its is not a complete closure of all shares (via 1 transaction) when the opening trade was done in multiple lots that Quicken forces the user to identify the lots even if they do it the same way in that account all the time.

The problem becomes worse when the sale of the entire position occurs not as 1 transaction but in multiple transaction (as I believe the original poster has identified).  For example, I opened a position in 2 lots of 500 shares and 400 shares.  If I put an order it to close 900 shares and the broker executes that in nine different 100 share transactions and sends 9 transactions through to quicken then Quicken is going to ask the user to you to identify the lots for at least the first 4 closing transactions.  I say "at least" because it will be more if you don't identify the opening lot of 400 for the first 4 closing transactions.

Many times this scenario occurs when the fill price is not the same across all shares of the closing trades or the way the commission is split up causes multiple closing transactions (instead of 1 bulk closing transaction).

ps.  for the O.P., I am also just another user/super user and not an employee.  Just trying to help out.

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: Need a Preference Setting for Lot Identification Strategies, i.e. First In, to El....

q_lurker

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Default Lots.


@JGumby:  "That sounds like a reply I would've expected from Intuit in the old days. ... "

OK, identities have now been clarified.  All fellow users here at this point.  No one is trying to speak for Quicken, Inc..  I'll just add to clarify my reaction to your idea: The basic idea has merit in terms of easing user interface.  I did not see any credibility added to your position by what I saw as exaggeration.  It was that perceived exaggeration that prompted my response.  

Further, it appeared that you may have been going deeper into actions than you needed to, and I was trying to convey that aspect.  For your FIFO preference, the popup appears and you only need to click the OK or Accept button (however it is labeled).  If that possibly can reduce your minutes/transaction to seconds/transaction, all the better.   

One more note -- as Kevin suggested, he and others have been bringing this idea to the developers' tables for quite a while.  They have not taken action on those requests.  That suggests the possibility that it may not be as easy at it might appear.

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: Need a Preference Setting for Lot Identification Strategies, i.e. First In, to El....

woodrr

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Default Lots.


Is it possible to get a comment directly from the Developers about this FIFO preference option?

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: Need a Preference Setting for Lot Identification Strategies, i.e. First In, to El....

rex luv

I’m with @jgumby. This is an annoying feature that is a huge time waster for me. Should be simple to program. I’m also an active trader and the time to Ok a transaction has gone up a ridiculous amount over the years. An hour is probably not an exaggeration.


Quicken has just gotten worse and worse over the years. If it were easy to jump ship and move to another software I probably would have already.

rolfejr

This bugs me so much I actually wrote an AutoHotKey script just to answer the stupid prompt for me.  It basically "clicks" accept, then "clicks" ok with whatever your default lot identification is, then repeats (since Quicken automatically advances to the next unaccepted transaction).  There's some timing built in that is largely dependent on the speed of your computer, size of your database, etc, so might need some tweaking.  ymmv.  To use, download autohotkey.  Save the script below into a *.ahk file.  Double click it.  In Qucken, auto accept what Quicken will, and when you get the dumb "here's a wizard to guide you through lot identification" click ok and click on the first unaccepted transaction.  Then press f12 to start the automation.  Press ESC when the transactions are all accepted,then click Done in Quicken.  You can sort of use the computer while it's running, but it will take the focus back to quick every 3 seconds or so, so best to just let it do its thing.  At least I can walk away and not have to go through this agonizing click, wait game forever.  In my case I have five different accounts that do this for about 5-7 transactions per month.  Yeah, I probably spent more time figuring out the script than I ever would clicking through 30 or so transactions a month at about 5 seconds each, but the script was a lot more fun. :-)  And maybe it can be an even bigger time saver for someone else. Also, I'm assuming Quicken 2016 Deluxe here, it's possible that "QC_button2" and "QC_button77" might be named differently in different versions of Quicken.  You can use AutoHotKey WindowSpy feature to figure it out.

#NoEnv
#Persistent
#SingleInstance, force

SetMouseDelay, 10
SendMode, event
 
f12:: ;<- use the f12 key to start/stop the clicking routine

clicktoggle := !clicktoggle

if (!clicktoggle)
{ SetTimer, ClickAccept, off
  tooltip
  return
}

; drops through into the click timer

ClickAccept:

tooltip, NOTE: AutoHotkey is running to auto answer accept quicken lot identification
ControlClick, QC_button77, Quicken
sleep 1000
setTimer, ClickOK, -1000
return

ClickOK:

ControlClick, QC_button2, Sell Shares
sleep 3000
setTimer, ClickAccept, -1000
return

Esc:: Exitapp ;<- use the esc key to end the script

richhay12

This script works great, thank you so much for posting!  Quicken really should have a default accept method, but until they do, this option is a great alternative!

patmatusa

Ditto....I agree with JGumby... The download from my brokerage firm for Mutual Funds creates many lots.... sometimes each transaction is in pennies. In one month I might have 40 to 60 lots to accept. And clicking "enter" and waiting 5 to 6 seconds for the prompt to return is just a waste of time and annoying! 

stewboo

Use "QC_button78" instead for Quicken 2018. 

The above took a fair amount of sleuthing. I ended up downloading WinSpy to find the right id. It's an AHK script.

What is the real mind blower is how many years Default Lot Identification has been an unresolved issue. Tone deaf customer service.

Rick Gumpertz

To clarify, allow setting the default allocation to ANY of the standard choices, i.e. FIFO, LIFO, MIN GAIN, or MAX GAIN, not just FIFO.  Also, the default allocation should be allowed to be different for each account.

Neil Kane

I'm a bit chagrined of the people whose response to a request for a feature is, "Why do you need that"? Someone in this thread correctly noticed that the way one accounts for taxable sales may be different than for non-taxable sales (like in a retirement account), and I have positions in private companies and I have my own reasons for how I'd like to track lots. It needs to be different for each account...and Quicken needs to recognize the need. The capability is already there in the "Specify Lots" feature--they just need to give us a way to set our own default method in each account.