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Stock Transfer

denmarfl
denmarfl Member ✭✭✭
edited June 2018 in Investing (Windows)
Transfer Shares of Stock to New Acct; Investment LOSS does not Transfer.

I had shares of Stock in an IRA Roth that I cashed out....and re-registered the Shares as Non-Qual Investment.  The Shares were Transferred to the Holding Company....

I used Transfer shares between accts to move the shares from the ROTH Register to the existing Holding Company's Register (as I also had shares in the same Investment as ROTH and Taxable shares. The shares transferred fine....but, the Investment Loss did not transfer. The Roth Register shows no Market valve/no shares...but shows Cash....a negative amt equal to the ROTH shares Investment loss.  To not transfer the Investment Loss is not maintaining the correct Cost basis figure.  

Is there something I have failed to do?  I could just, I guess, to get old Roth register to "0" balance, add cash...I think....but that would not carryover the loss into the New acct to represent the correct Cost basis of the Investment. Or, I could leave the shares in the ROTH Register, but that would reflect an Investment that was incorrect in that the shares are no Longer Tax free.......and, 

Comments

  • mshiggins
    mshiggins SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Quicken for Windows or Quicken for Mac?
    Quicken user since Q1999. Currently using QW2017.
    Questions? Check out the  Quicken Windows FAQ list
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    I am going to assume that since you referenced the Shares Transferred function, you are using a QWin version.  It would still be helpful to know which one.  

    I am not following how you mean the the investment loss is not transferring.  I'll explain how the Shares Transferred function should operate.  You can see if yours is doing something different.

    In the 'from' account, one "Remove Shares" transaction should be generated per your instructions for the number and specific shares for each applicable security. If you choose to transfer All shares of All Securities, you might have several Remove Shares transactions generated.  Short positions and cash positions will not be transferred.  The Remove Shares transactions will reflect removing those shares 'at cost', meaning at their original acquisition costs (possibly affected by any RtrnCap transactions; I have not checked that potential nuance.)  If you happened to choose to run a Capital Gains report on that account, you would see the Remove Shares transactions reported there, with a $0 cap gain result.  (Running such a report on a tax deferred account would be outside the norm and has no real-world tax significance, but the behavior remains as indicated.  

    In the 'receiving' account, you should see for each lot of the transferred shares one Add Shares transaction.  Each of those Add Shares transactions will reflect the original purchase cost of the shares in that lot and the original acquisition dates of that lot.  

    That is all you should be seeing and expecting from the Shares Transferred action.  If you have a loss on the investment value at the time of the transfer, that should be reflected in the current market price of the security.  If that price was less than the acquisition cost in the original account, it will also be less than the cost shown after the transfer in the receiving account.  

    With respect to moving shares from a tax deferred account to a taxable account, the Shares Transferred (and the attendant Remove Shares / Add Shares parings) will not reflect any tax consequences for that movement.  I am not following what is happening in your real world accounts, but the more common circumstance would be someone transferring shares as part of a required minimum distribution from a tax-deferred account.  In that circumstance, I believe the correct processing is to sell the shares in the tax-deferred account, transfer the cash, and then buy shares (creating a new position) in the taxable account.  

    HTH
  • denmarfl
    denmarfl Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    Interesting, I checked my profile and its marked to notify me at me correct email address...but I never rec'd an email.

    I am running QWin 2015.

    Not sure if you are instructing me to use "Removed - Shares Removed" or "Shares Transferred Between accts" ....but since Remove- Shares removed has no Sending Acct Blank...it must be to use Shares Transferred out of acct menu item so that is the one I was using.

    The Shares were held by a Custodian since they were in an IRA.  That Custodian as I understood Re-Registered the shares from IRA (Qual) to Non-Qual shares and now the Same shares are being held by the Register and Transfer company.  Had they been sold....and re-purchased...there would have been fees involved and there were no Fees.

    Going back to using "Shares transferred bewteen accts"....

    As an example...right now this investments shows the Securities Value as a Minus Number (its the total shares Value Loss to date) to the Total market Value figure shown is the original Purchase less this Loss.  When I complete Shares Transferred between accts, the Total number of shares transfer....and the original IRA Register still shows the the LOSS dollars.... but No shares in that Register.  I would like the IRA Register to show no shares, no values.....be zero.  I think you are saying that the transfer of the shares will properly reflect the LOSS for these Transferred shares because the Non-Qual Register reflects the original Purchase price of these shares (they were all purchased at the same Share Price at the same time)...so overall, the Non-Qual Register...with the Transferred Shares not only shows the transferred shares, its Investment LOSS also is reflected ....ie if the Non-Qual showed a 1,000 Loss and the IRA Shares had a $100. LOSS, the Non-Qual Register should show the LOSS as $1,100.00.  If this is so, then how do I zero out the IRA Register which shows the LOSS dollars after I transferred the Shares?  I did try adding Deposit funds....hoping it would balance the loss dollars and render the register at Zero, that didn't work.  

    Again, I had this same investment in IRA shares and Non-Qual Shares.....so all that took place was re-registering the IRA shares and they were transferred by the Custodian to the Register and Transfer company and my Non-Qual for this investment and my Non-Qual Statement reflects the transferred shares.

    Thank you for your time and assistance thus far, its appreciated.....

     
  • denmarfl
    denmarfl Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 2016
    denmarfl said:

    Interesting, I checked my profile and its marked to notify me at me correct email address...but I never rec'd an email.

    I am running QWin 2015.

    Not sure if you are instructing me to use "Removed - Shares Removed" or "Shares Transferred Between accts" ....but since Remove- Shares removed has no Sending Acct Blank...it must be to use Shares Transferred out of acct menu item so that is the one I was using.

    The Shares were held by a Custodian since they were in an IRA.  That Custodian as I understood Re-Registered the shares from IRA (Qual) to Non-Qual shares and now the Same shares are being held by the Register and Transfer company.  Had they been sold....and re-purchased...there would have been fees involved and there were no Fees.

    Going back to using "Shares transferred bewteen accts"....

    As an example...right now this investments shows the Securities Value as a Minus Number (its the total shares Value Loss to date) to the Total market Value figure shown is the original Purchase less this Loss.  When I complete Shares Transferred between accts, the Total number of shares transfer....and the original IRA Register still shows the the LOSS dollars.... but No shares in that Register.  I would like the IRA Register to show no shares, no values.....be zero.  I think you are saying that the transfer of the shares will properly reflect the LOSS for these Transferred shares because the Non-Qual Register reflects the original Purchase price of these shares (they were all purchased at the same Share Price at the same time)...so overall, the Non-Qual Register...with the Transferred Shares not only shows the transferred shares, its Investment LOSS also is reflected ....ie if the Non-Qual showed a 1,000 Loss and the IRA Shares had a $100. LOSS, the Non-Qual Register should show the LOSS as $1,100.00.  If this is so, then how do I zero out the IRA Register which shows the LOSS dollars after I transferred the Shares?  I did try adding Deposit funds....hoping it would balance the loss dollars and render the register at Zero, that didn't work.  

    Again, I had this same investment in IRA shares and Non-Qual Shares.....so all that took place was re-registering the IRA shares and they were transferred by the Custodian to the Register and Transfer company and my Non-Qual for this investment and my Non-Qual Statement reflects the transferred shares.

    Thank you for your time and assistance thus far, its appreciated.....

     

    PLEASE SEE REVISED POSTING BELOW...I editing a few areas and the SITES Edit feature failed to edit this original entry......
  • denmarfl
    denmarfl Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    Interesting, I checked my profile and its marked to notify me at me correct email address...but I never rec'd an email.

    I am running QWin 2015.

    Not sure if you are instructing me to use "Removed - Shares Removed" or "Shares Transferred Between accts" ....but since Remove- Shares removed has no Sending Acct Blank...it must be to use Shares Transferred out of acct menu item so that is the one I was using.

    The 99 Shares were held by a Custodian since they were in an IRA.  That Custodian as I understood Re-Registered the shares from IRA (Qual) to Non-Qual shares and now the Same shares are being held by the Register and Transfer company.  Had they been sold....and re-purchased...there would have been fees involved and there were no Fees.

    Going back to using "Shares transferred bewteen accts"....

    As an example...right now this investments shows the Securities Value as a Minus Number (its the total shares Value Loss to date) to the Total market Value figure shown is the original Purchase less this Loss.  When I complete Shares Transferred between accts, the Total number of shares transfer....and the original IRA Register Securties Value from the negative dollar amt that was displayed before the transfer to the FULL original Purchase of these 99 shares .... but No shares in that Register.  I would like the IRA Register to show no shares, no values.....be zero.  I think you are saying that the transfer of the shares will properly reflect the LOSS for these Transferred shares because the Non-Qual Register reflects the original Purchase price of these shares (they were all purchased at the same Share Price at the same time)...so overall, the Non-Qual Register...with the Transferred Shares not only shows the transferred shares, its Investment LOSS also is reflected ....ie if the Non-Qual showed a 1,000 Loss and the IRA Shares had a $100. LOSS, the Non-Qual Register should show the LOSS as $1,100.00.  If this is so, then how do I zero out the IRA Register which shows the LOSS dollars after I transferred the Shares?  I did try adding Deposit funds....hoping it would balance the loss dollars and render the register at Zero, that didn't work.  I guess I could just delete the IRA Register, but than maybe not because it could remove the Transfer from the Non-Qual Register.  But, I would prefer to keep the IRA Register to show total History of these 99 shares...but get that IRA (non closed IRA) register to show ZERO instead of what it now shows as a Negative Securities Value reflecting the original Purchase Price.  

    Again, I had this same investment in IRA shares and Non-Qual Shares.....so all that took place was re-registering the IRA shares and they were transferred by the Custodian to the Register and Transfer company and my Non-Qual for this investment and my Non-Qual Statement reflects the transferred shares.

    Here is what the IRA Register displays in the lower left after entering the Transfer....

    Securities Value:  $1,000.92   Cash Balance:  $1,000.92
    Total market Value:  $0.00

    Securities and Cash Balance are the Amts original Paid for these 99 shrs

    I would have thought following the Transfer ALL would have shown .00; how do I get Securities Valve and Cash Balance to show .00?   And, shouldn't they have shown zero after transferring all shares out of the IRA Register?

    Thank you for your time and assistance thus far, its appreciated.....I do hope I have not confused you...or made this more complicated.  



     
  • volvogirl
    volvogirl SuperUser ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Let's back up. Where did you move it to? Did you take it out of the IRA account and put it in a regular personal account not inside a IRA (or ROTH IRA)? If you moved it out of the IRA umbrella then you took a Distribution from the Roth. Technically there is no gain or loss in IRA, 401K, or retirement accounts. Just total Distributions. For taxes You don't report the gain or loss just the gross amount withdrawn.



    If you took it out and put it in a non IRA account the "gain/loss" doesn't transfer with it. You just enter the shares in the new account with the right cost basis, which could be more or less.
  • denmarfl
    denmarfl Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    This is strange, still didn't get an email that a response was available for review.....

    I moved it from a Roth IRA Register.....to an existing Non-Qual (Taxable) Register because I owned shares of this Stock in both the Roth and Non-Qual Investments.  When the Roth Distribution was made, those shares were added to and are in the same acct....held by the Register & Transfer company.

    So now the Roth registers are showing a Securities Value equal to the Original Purchase Price...in Red (Negative) and Cash balance for the same original Purchase price but in Black.  Having successfully used Transfer shares Between accts.....I would have thought the Roth Registers would show .00 as to Securities Value and Cash balance and that is what I would like them to show.

    I did run a Net Worth Summary Report and the Roth Ira that I distributed....in that report do show as .00.  The Non-Qual Registers the shares were transferred into does show the added shares...and the LOSS investment amts also correctly transferred over/into the Non-Qual Register.  
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    Let's get back to basics.  

    a)  IMO (a very non-professional opinion), if you have taken assets out of an IRA as a distribution, within Quicken you should be selling those assets and transferring out the cash.  There may be special circumstances making other processes applicable, but those would be unusual and I haven't seen you quantify them.   You would then be buying new shares in the taxable account.  This would all apply regardless of whether any fees were charged by the account managers.  Likewise the fact that exactly the same number of shares are involved is not relevant.   

    Relevant questions I would be asking the account managers:  
    • Will you be getting 1099 information next year on this transaction as a withdrawal from the Roth IRA?  
    • With respect to the shares just placed in the taxable account, would they be treated as a short term gain/loss if sold today?  
    • What is the tax cost basis for those shares that will be used when they are sold (or if they were sold now)?
    Especially if the first two answers are Yes, then my position is supported.  

    If my position is correct, then there is no loss to transfer as you initially inquired,  Your newly added shares in the taxable account will have a new cost basis.  They will not carry over the cost basis from when you acquired shares in the Roth IRA.    

    b)  You have spoken multiple times about a Loss, but you have not quantified how you are seeing this loss.  There can be a loss between the current market value and the cost basis.  There can be a loss between the current market value and the Amount Invested (a separate Quicken calculation).  There can be a loss for this year or for the life of the account, or the life of the security in the account.  What loss are you referring to?  How are you seeing it in Quicken?  

    c)  Your Shares Transferred actions seem to be leaving cash in the Roth IRA account per your information.  Since that action only generates Remove Shares transactions, if cash is in the account after the action, it must have been there before the action.  Generally I would expect a process of: 
    • Receive a paycheck in a checking account with an amount transferred to the Roth IRA account putting cash into the Roth IRA account register, then
    • Buy shares of (stock, Mutual funds, etc) in the Roth IRA account using all the cash (taking the cash balance to $0)
    But there are other sequences people have used.

    What process did you use to build up your shares in the Roth IRA?
    Prior to the transfer, was there a cash balance in the account?
  • denmarfl
    denmarfl Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    Shares were Purchased in this Investment....some were in the Roth, others in Taxable.  The Roth was held by a Custodian whereas the Tax shrs were held by the Register $ Transfer Company.  When I made the Purchases, I entered each by entering the Number of shares purchased and entered the Purchase price.  Both Registers showed the value of the shares on the day of purchase.  Overtime the shrs have loss Shr value....and both Registers reflected that Loss in the LOSS/Gain Column and displayed the LOSS in the Bottom left corners of each Register...and of course the figure varied as the stock price varied.  At the time of this recent action.....the shr price was down...a LOSS in shr value.  So comparing what I paid for the shrs and what they were worth the day I made the made the Transfer....I have a real LOSS from what I paid for the shrs.

    The paperwork I rec'd from the Custodian was Re-Register shrs from Non-Tax to taxable shrs and watching the transaction, all I saw was the Shrs removed from the Custodians Account....and than saw those shares added to my existing acct for that same investment in the Register and Transfer Acct.  I saw nothing to support a Sell and Re-purchase.

    My main concern is no longer how this all happened because as it is today, using Transfer shares out of one acct to another in Q, my Roth Register shows NO shares and my Taxable Register of this investment shows the Roth Shares added.  Also, the ROTH dollar LOSS that was showed in the Roth Register, it also transfer and added to the LOSS of Investment in the Taxaable Register.  I won't get a 1099....and if I do, it won't be a Taxable Event since Roth's are Tax free as to Investment and any Gain or Loss.  

    But as I wrote, my Taxable Register is fine..the Roth shrs are added to it, and, the Investment LOSS, shr price Loss since purchase, it also transferred to the taxable acct.  Since LOSS/GAINS are not Taxable, how I report that is a topic for another day.  The ROTH loss shows as a separate Lot entry in the Q Holding for the Investment and can be easily identified separate from the taxable Lots.

    My concern now is only what the Q Roth Register displays is the Lower Right Corner following the use of Transfer shares between accts.  The Roth register shows NO SHARES "0", but like I wrote shows, 

    Securities Value:  (-)$1,000.92   Cash Balance: (-) $1,000.92
    Total market Value:  $0.00

    Is there away to get the ROTH Register to show .00 in Securities Value and Cash balance?

    Again, I never entered any CASH in the ACCT.  If you view Holding, it never showed CASH....it showed Lot  3/3/14  Shrs XXX   Market Value $xxxx  etc.....

    It never had any CASH entries under HOLDING. When I look at the Roth Register today, it shows all .00  but yet the Register shows the (-) dollar amt in the lower right as I have shown above.

    This isn't about how the Investment was Transferred, I completed the paperwork and the Experts took care of that, its done, its about in my Q Roth Register, what it is now displaying.

    Thanks



     
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    denmarfl said:

    Shares were Purchased in this Investment....some were in the Roth, others in Taxable.  The Roth was held by a Custodian whereas the Tax shrs were held by the Register $ Transfer Company.  When I made the Purchases, I entered each by entering the Number of shares purchased and entered the Purchase price.  Both Registers showed the value of the shares on the day of purchase.  Overtime the shrs have loss Shr value....and both Registers reflected that Loss in the LOSS/Gain Column and displayed the LOSS in the Bottom left corners of each Register...and of course the figure varied as the stock price varied.  At the time of this recent action.....the shr price was down...a LOSS in shr value.  So comparing what I paid for the shrs and what they were worth the day I made the made the Transfer....I have a real LOSS from what I paid for the shrs.

    The paperwork I rec'd from the Custodian was Re-Register shrs from Non-Tax to taxable shrs and watching the transaction, all I saw was the Shrs removed from the Custodians Account....and than saw those shares added to my existing acct for that same investment in the Register and Transfer Acct.  I saw nothing to support a Sell and Re-purchase.

    My main concern is no longer how this all happened because as it is today, using Transfer shares out of one acct to another in Q, my Roth Register shows NO shares and my Taxable Register of this investment shows the Roth Shares added.  Also, the ROTH dollar LOSS that was showed in the Roth Register, it also transfer and added to the LOSS of Investment in the Taxaable Register.  I won't get a 1099....and if I do, it won't be a Taxable Event since Roth's are Tax free as to Investment and any Gain or Loss.  

    But as I wrote, my Taxable Register is fine..the Roth shrs are added to it, and, the Investment LOSS, shr price Loss since purchase, it also transferred to the taxable acct.  Since LOSS/GAINS are not Taxable, how I report that is a topic for another day.  The ROTH loss shows as a separate Lot entry in the Q Holding for the Investment and can be easily identified separate from the taxable Lots.

    My concern now is only what the Q Roth Register displays is the Lower Right Corner following the use of Transfer shares between accts.  The Roth register shows NO SHARES "0", but like I wrote shows, 

    Securities Value:  (-)$1,000.92   Cash Balance: (-) $1,000.92
    Total market Value:  $0.00

    Is there away to get the ROTH Register to show .00 in Securities Value and Cash balance?

    Again, I never entered any CASH in the ACCT.  If you view Holding, it never showed CASH....it showed Lot  3/3/14  Shrs XXX   Market Value $xxxx  etc.....

    It never had any CASH entries under HOLDING. When I look at the Roth Register today, it shows all .00  but yet the Register shows the (-) dollar amt in the lower right as I have shown above.

    This isn't about how the Investment was Transferred, I completed the paperwork and the Experts took care of that, its done, its about in my Q Roth Register, what it is now displaying.

    Thanks



     

    Lets continue from here:  
    Shares were Purchased in this Investment....some were in the Roth, ... 
    Specific to your Quicken data, how were these shares purchased in the Roth IRA account?  Usually, cash is required to make a purchase.  Where did the cash come from?  Or did you acquire the shares in Quicken some way other than a Buy Shares transaction?  

    Generally, I would expect to see information like shown below in your Roth IRA transactions list (register) where I have incoming cash contributions and then Buy Shares to acquire shares of security "A".  

    image


    If I look at a Holdings for the account, I see:

    image

    The Gain/Loss column shows the Loss (based on the price I gave it for today), but the lower portion of the transaction list (far right) shows the correct securities value, $0 cash balance, and correct total market value.  This would all be before a transfer out of any shares.  But in my case also, performing that transfer will not affect the cash balance.  
  • denmarfl
    denmarfl Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    It may be I created the problem......

    To answer your question, where did the Cash come from...etc

    The Security the subject of this thread are shares of Stock in a Reit in a Roth.  The Reit, which I'll name the ABC Reit is made of multiple Business segments.   The ABC Reit spun off the XYZ Company and shareholders got X amt of shares in the XYZ Company.  So now I had the ABC in the reit, and, a New Investment which was/is the XYZ company.  Two separate Securities.... The ABC Company share Value was devaluated and I entered into the ABC Register a "Withdraw dollar amt to equal the devaluated ABC investment value.  I then created a New Roth Register for the spun-off XYZ Company.  I entered the number of XYZ company shares and the share Price....which equaled the spun-Off XYZ company investment value on the day it spun off.  I don't recall Q asking where the cash to create the XYZ company Roth Register came from.   so now I had the ABC Roth register and the XYZ Roth Register.  

    I decided to Re-Register the XYZ shares from a Roth to a taxable Investment...and this was done by the Custodian that held the XYZ Roth Shares Transferring those shares to the Register and Transfer company.  So the XYZ Roth Register now displays:

    image 

    The negative amts are equal to the Value of the XYZ initial Value on the day it spun-off.  So now as I am looking at this attachment this Roth Register shows Total market Value as .00.....which is correct because the Shares were Transferred out of this Roth Acct.....and they are now Taxable Shares.  Since this Acct/Quicken Register no longer hold any shares......should the Securities value and the Cash balance also be .00?  Or looking at it now, it really is a .00 because on one side, the Securities Value is a Negative, and on the other side the cash balance is a Plus...the two wipe out one another and leaving the register displaying this information has no impact on my overall Net Worth shown in Quicken.   
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    denmarfl said:

    It may be I created the problem......

    To answer your question, where did the Cash come from...etc

    The Security the subject of this thread are shares of Stock in a Reit in a Roth.  The Reit, which I'll name the ABC Reit is made of multiple Business segments.   The ABC Reit spun off the XYZ Company and shareholders got X amt of shares in the XYZ Company.  So now I had the ABC in the reit, and, a New Investment which was/is the XYZ company.  Two separate Securities.... The ABC Company share Value was devaluated and I entered into the ABC Register a "Withdraw dollar amt to equal the devaluated ABC investment value.  I then created a New Roth Register for the spun-off XYZ Company.  I entered the number of XYZ company shares and the share Price....which equaled the spun-Off XYZ company investment value on the day it spun off.  I don't recall Q asking where the cash to create the XYZ company Roth Register came from.   so now I had the ABC Roth register and the XYZ Roth Register.  

    I decided to Re-Register the XYZ shares from a Roth to a taxable Investment...and this was done by the Custodian that held the XYZ Roth Shares Transferring those shares to the Register and Transfer company.  So the XYZ Roth Register now displays:

    image 

    The negative amts are equal to the Value of the XYZ initial Value on the day it spun-off.  So now as I am looking at this attachment this Roth Register shows Total market Value as .00.....which is correct because the Shares were Transferred out of this Roth Acct.....and they are now Taxable Shares.  Since this Acct/Quicken Register no longer hold any shares......should the Securities value and the Cash balance also be .00?  Or looking at it now, it really is a .00 because on one side, the Securities Value is a Negative, and on the other side the cash balance is a Plus...the two wipe out one another and leaving the register displaying this information has no impact on my overall Net Worth shown in Quicken.   

    The ABC Company share Value was devaluated and I entered into the ABC Register a "Withdraw dollar amt to equal the devaluated ABC investment value.  
    There are two possibilities here.  I am not sure which you mean.  When ABC Reit spun off XYZ Co, in normal circumstances, part of the cost basis for your ABC holding gets assigned to the XYZ holding.  So first the cost basis is reduced.  Secondly, the trading price for ABC will also reduce in the open market.  It had been $10/share, after the spinoff it is $7/share (purely as example figures).  Neither of these considerations would warrant withdrawing cash from the account.   

    The cost basis adjustment is done either with a RtrnCap transaction or (my preference) a Remove Shares and Add shares pairing.  

    The marketplace price adjustment is more simply a matter of updating the daily quotes accordingly.  

    So I agree, your withdraw cash from the account may well be the source of your issue. 
    I then created a New Roth Register for the spun-off XYZ Company ... so now I had the ABC Roth register and the XYZ Roth Register.
    There is (usually) no need to create a new account for each holding.  Doing so generally makes management of holdings more difficult, IMO.  Parallel to that though, "Accounts" should not be named for the security owned in the account.  I would have simply recorded the acquisition of the XYZ shares in the original Roth IRA account.
    I don't recall Q asking where the cash to create the XYZ company Roth Register came from. 
    In that setting, it is likely that Quicken entered a placeholder as your initial acquisition transaction allowing you to later fill in added cost details or supply proper buy shares or add shares transactions.  

    When all is done properly, the securities value, cash balance, and market value of the account would all go to $0 after the transfer out.  Whether any of this is worth it to you to change is your call.  

    Did you ever try searching this site for the company name to see how others handled this spinoff?  There is really no value I see to being coy about the companies involved, and sharing that specific information can usually lead to much more effective discussions.  
  • denmarfl
    denmarfl Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 2016
    denmarfl said:

    It may be I created the problem......

    To answer your question, where did the Cash come from...etc

    The Security the subject of this thread are shares of Stock in a Reit in a Roth.  The Reit, which I'll name the ABC Reit is made of multiple Business segments.   The ABC Reit spun off the XYZ Company and shareholders got X amt of shares in the XYZ Company.  So now I had the ABC in the reit, and, a New Investment which was/is the XYZ company.  Two separate Securities.... The ABC Company share Value was devaluated and I entered into the ABC Register a "Withdraw dollar amt to equal the devaluated ABC investment value.  I then created a New Roth Register for the spun-off XYZ Company.  I entered the number of XYZ company shares and the share Price....which equaled the spun-Off XYZ company investment value on the day it spun off.  I don't recall Q asking where the cash to create the XYZ company Roth Register came from.   so now I had the ABC Roth register and the XYZ Roth Register.  

    I decided to Re-Register the XYZ shares from a Roth to a taxable Investment...and this was done by the Custodian that held the XYZ Roth Shares Transferring those shares to the Register and Transfer company.  So the XYZ Roth Register now displays:

    image 

    The negative amts are equal to the Value of the XYZ initial Value on the day it spun-off.  So now as I am looking at this attachment this Roth Register shows Total market Value as .00.....which is correct because the Shares were Transferred out of this Roth Acct.....and they are now Taxable Shares.  Since this Acct/Quicken Register no longer hold any shares......should the Securities value and the Cash balance also be .00?  Or looking at it now, it really is a .00 because on one side, the Securities Value is a Negative, and on the other side the cash balance is a Plus...the two wipe out one another and leaving the register displaying this information has no impact on my overall Net Worth shown in Quicken.   

    Did a search at this site for the 2 named shares, neither were found.

    I'll just leave the ROTH Registers as is since that Investment\Register appears in my Net Worth Report as zero.  

    The Initial Investment, ABC Company is a Privately Traded Reit and the XYX company spin-off was done so as a Publicly Traded stock.  Internally the Privately traded ABC....I think you could say, purchased the shares of XYZ and awarded them to share holders.....therefore that purchase had no loss....it was a initial purchase.  But to fund this Spin-off, the ABC company reduced its shares price, thus the loss and that Loss assigned to the ABC company, not carried over to the XYZ company.  To me given the XYZ company was a brand new established company, and unlike the ABC company that continues as a Privately traded reit, it made sense to establish a New Register for the XYZ company as the two companies are totally separate Companies.   
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    denmarfl said:

    It may be I created the problem......

    To answer your question, where did the Cash come from...etc

    The Security the subject of this thread are shares of Stock in a Reit in a Roth.  The Reit, which I'll name the ABC Reit is made of multiple Business segments.   The ABC Reit spun off the XYZ Company and shareholders got X amt of shares in the XYZ Company.  So now I had the ABC in the reit, and, a New Investment which was/is the XYZ company.  Two separate Securities.... The ABC Company share Value was devaluated and I entered into the ABC Register a "Withdraw dollar amt to equal the devaluated ABC investment value.  I then created a New Roth Register for the spun-off XYZ Company.  I entered the number of XYZ company shares and the share Price....which equaled the spun-Off XYZ company investment value on the day it spun off.  I don't recall Q asking where the cash to create the XYZ company Roth Register came from.   so now I had the ABC Roth register and the XYZ Roth Register.  

    I decided to Re-Register the XYZ shares from a Roth to a taxable Investment...and this was done by the Custodian that held the XYZ Roth Shares Transferring those shares to the Register and Transfer company.  So the XYZ Roth Register now displays:

    image 

    The negative amts are equal to the Value of the XYZ initial Value on the day it spun-off.  So now as I am looking at this attachment this Roth Register shows Total market Value as .00.....which is correct because the Shares were Transferred out of this Roth Acct.....and they are now Taxable Shares.  Since this Acct/Quicken Register no longer hold any shares......should the Securities value and the Cash balance also be .00?  Or looking at it now, it really is a .00 because on one side, the Securities Value is a Negative, and on the other side the cash balance is a Plus...the two wipe out one another and leaving the register displaying this information has no impact on my overall Net Worth shown in Quicken.   

    We are moving off on a tangent, but anyway ...
    To me given the XYZ company was a brand new established company, and unlike the ABC company that continues as a Privately traded reit, it made sense to establish a New Register for the XYZ company as the two companies are totally separate Companies.  
    What if you owned shares of Ford and Apple in a Roth IRA.  Those are two totally separate companies.  Would you create two separate accounts for them?  

    There is no intent I see within Quicken that suggests accounts be structured around the securities held within them.  In participating on this site (and its predecessors) for many years, I have seen people take that type of direction and it usually seems to lead to confusion down the line.  Accounts get confused with securities. They are distinct entities in Quicken.  

    Securities are individual items that can be bought and sold and thus have value.   They may be publicly traded but that is not a requirement; securities can also be privately held.

    Accounts are collections of securities.  In most cases, accounts in Quicken should correspond to accounts in the real world.  Within an account, you buy and sell specific securities.  You move cash in and out of an account.  You receive dividends and interest as cash in the account.

    When you have a Roth IRA (for example) as two separate real world accounts, like one at Vanguard and one at Schwab, then it makes sense to have two separate Roth IRA accounts in Quicken.  That structure mirrors the real world and makes downloading of transaction information easy.  But when downloading is not a factor, I don't agree with the premise that "totally separate companies" benefit from totally separate IRA accounts within Quicken.

    It is your data and you are certainly free to structure the information the way you see fit and the way it best suits your needs.  That flexibility is one of Quicken's strengths.  Just offering my opinions and observations.

    Enough of that tangent.  Carry on.  
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