Fiduciary Management and Trust and Conservatorship Accounting

Elaine2

I am in the process of becoming a licensed professional fiduciary in California.  As I have been meeting other fiduciaries-- most of them use Quicken to manage client accounts. A fact, I find stunning given that Quicken is not designed to handle these  unique kinds of accounts.

The fact is that whether your brother Bob was named as Successor Trustee to your parent's trust, or you manage your sister's probate conservatorship, these are legally distinct types of accounts that depending on its structure or triggering events, are subject to an accounting to the court.

The American College of Trust and Estate Counsel have developed templates to be used in Quicken: http://www.actec.org/publications/quicken-templates-FAQ/ .  These are helpful.

Given our aging population and conflicts that often arise regarding the transfer of wealth and wealth management or lack thereof, it would be enormously helpful to create a new version of quicken (you already have have several or incorporate trust and conservatorship accounting into one of your other versions-- that enable families to effectively and properly manage the finances and assets of aging family members.

In addition, adding the Emergency inventory list back into this system would be of enormous value to your customers because estates have to inventoried and appraised.  I succeeded in adding the file back into 2016-- but it would be really, really, really helpful to just include it in your product. I'd pay extra for it!

The new-- product could include a combination of investment management, business, and trust accounting features. 

Quickbooks is designed for business and is a completely different category of product.  Trust accounting is a legally different unique kind of account-- .

Wealth is being lost in this country in  the billions of dollars because among other things, there are no planning tools.  Quicken would be doing the nation a great service by building the necessary tools for consumers to better protect aging adults. 

Unknown

I never really though about this. When my father died, my mother got everything (both as a married spouse and by will) so the 'accounting' was very uncomplicated and easy. I can see that when my mother dies, it will become a bit more involved.

Good idea.

As for the Emergency Records Organizer (ERO) - yes, you have to manually add it, although any data that was in it from prior versions is still available. However, the ERO needs a work over. There are fields and types that should be added and more automated tools available.

Quicken Sarah

Hello All,

This Idea seems to have fallen stagnant and due to the Age of the request and lack of User Votes/Comments, will be archived within the next 7 business days. 

If you would like to see this Idea kept alive and considered for possible future implementation in Quicken, be sure to Add your Vote and a comment explaining how this Idea would be beneficial for you.

More information, including steps to vote and how to submit your own Ideas for future product features/improvements is also available here.

Thank you, 

Quicken Community Support Team

Jim_Harman

I can certainly attest to the usefulness of Quicken for managing the finances of aging family members. While they are still alive, about all it takes is a separate QDF file for the other person.

I am also using Quicken and TurboTax Business as a Trustee to track the finances and prepare tax returns for a trust that benefits a family member. Most of the necessary features are already in place as long as the investments are not too complex. It all depends on the provisions of the trust document.

I find that a customized version of the Banking Summary report provides most of the year-end information needed.

The alternative of using a bank trust department as the trustee or co-trustee can be very expensive, costing more than 1% of the trust's assets per year. 

I found the book "Estate and Trust Administration for Dummies" quite helpful in understanding the duties of Executors and Trustees.

Rocket J Squirrel

I think it would be difficult to implement to produce specialty accounts and/or reports acceptable to state courts. Fiduciary laws vary - a lot - by state.

I was legal guardian for my mother in New Jersey, where reporting requirements are simple. Ordinary Quicken generated cash flow reports that could be easily massaged in Excel into a one-page format acceptable to the NJ court annually.

But California conservatorship requirements are much more demanding. CA wants a huge amount of detail, essentially all transactions rather than a summary. Even so, I think Quicken as-is could do the job with reports exported and formatted in Excel.

Jim_Harman

Another difficulty with using Quicken for trust accounting is the requirement to maintain separate Principal and Income accounts.

If anyone has a solution for this that does not require a lot of manual entry, it would be good to learn what it is.

RICCHA

As a professional Department of Veterans Affairs Federal Fiduciary (aka an uneducated/unlicensed, not court appointed responsible party), I have come to the conclusion that we are on the cusp of being a significant enough user group, that this should be investigated more. As the VA moves away from professionals like accountants, attorneys, wealth management groups, etc that can bill for extra services beyond the VA allowable commission compensation, more unlicensed professionals are being asked to take on the responsibility of managing incompetent veteran benefits.

 Just like many online games these days give you a taste of the excitement and ask you to pay real world money to be a significant competitor, I would be willing to pay for a template that is specific to my needs. A template format that could fill in or provide all required info of your 21p-4706b annual/final accounting form, as well as track expenses for the beneficiary, and tools that allow simple management of bill pay parties (ie, tags that help with auto assign payee/category), information management of recurring bills, fiscal year reporting that cycles yearly to the day rather than the 1st of the month (with ability to +/- days to fit the statement end date as allowed by the VA or California supreme court), as well as the ability to carryover the balance from the last accounting (aka estate at beginning of period) so that last years ending accounting is added to the total funds under management for the current accounting.

 This can be extended to court appointed (professional, non-corporate) fiduciary accounting's, and a whole host of other specific reporting requirements.

 For the single user (ie, daughter, son, cousin etc.) a one time purchase of $10 for the report feature is more than reasonable, and for the professional (non-corporate) user $8-$10 per account would be beneficial to both the Quicken business and the professional fiduciary.

 For me, at $10 per template purchase (per beneficiary account), this would be another $220-$290+ per year beyond the purchase of Quicken. This can save me 80+ hours per year in VA accounting's.

 I would also recommend an option to add a single or a few bank accounts, rather than having Quicken find 40+ accounts associated with my master account, then having to Ignore all but 1 or 2 accounts found. This would save me a bit of time every-time I acquire a new case (add account number=12122121 and link , but ignore all others.).

 I would also recommend charging for extra data sets. Basic Quicken gives 30 data sets, each 10 beyond 30 cost ?$$$?

 This is all easy I theory, but will require thousands of hours in development, training, and support, so i know changes/additions aren't taken lightly, but this is definitely an area that can be improved. If all else fails, providing documentation that allows a power user to make there own templates like the American College of Trust and Estate Counsel, could be a draw to the product.

Anyway, i just thought I'd throw a few things out there that might help the little people like me. More and more licensed fiduciaries have been rejecting the work as a VA fiduciary because all of the financial/liable risks, and the extremely low pay, which means the VA is looking more and more for the everyday Jill or Joe to take on the responsibility of looking after incompetent veteran funds.

 Throw us a bone Quicken! Make our VA or Social Security appointed fiduciaries lives just a little more easy, allowing us to help more veterans in need.

Thanks,

RC

P.S. i have a bunch more ideas to make the software more friendly or powerfully but I'm not sure my suggestions are being heard.

webistrator

FWIW...the latest NOLO edition of Trustee's Legal Companion, p. 93, recommends Quicken and Quickbooks for trust management and related chores:

"...If you are administering a trust that will exist for more than six
months, though, you should buy basic accounting software, such as
Quicken or QuickBooks, to keep track of the movement of money in each
trust account. The cost is a perfectly permissible trust-related expense. If
you spend a few hours to set up the accounts, you will avoid countless
problems at the end of the year.
What about free online accounting programs, such as Mint
(www.mint.com)? You can use one, but before you dive in, make sure
that you can print out reports showing how the money has been spent
for each trust account. Some online programs are organized for instant
access, not for printouts.
For most trusts, Quicken should be sufficient. It is easy to use it to
track various categories of expenses, balance bank accounts, and keep
track of multiple investment accounts. If you are administering a trust
that has many accounts receivable, or many different customers or businesses,
QuickBooks, a more full-featured accounting program, might be a
better choice. ..."

With that in mind, I'd think Quicken folks would step up and honor those kudos from a highly respected "everyperson's" source of info. As a newly minted successor trustee-in-waiting I was about to jump into Quicken for the first time, but now I'm confused as to what flavor or Quicken to adopt.

J. in CO

NotACPA

Nolo, while well respected, is NOT part of Quicken, NOT owned by Quicken.

AND, Quicken is financial software ... not LEGAL software. 

If Q doesn't meet your needs ... look for something else.

Also note that your quote reads "For most trusts".  As noted above, Q can't possibly meet the needs of Trusts in every state.

Frankx

While I can understand why some folks might use Quicken to track the financial activity of a small estate or trust, or the financial activity of an aged parent or relative, it is not designed for that purpose and I doubt that Quicken would ever consider entering into that market.  Nor would Quicken go through the significant development process to make changes for such a limited market.

Personally, I'd rather see Quicken continue to work on current products and enhancing them (and I am speaking as someone who has administered and managed multiple estates and trusts). 

If I could, I would vote a big NO on this idea.

Just sayin'

Elaine2

I can't remember whe> @RICCHA said:
> As a professional Department of Veterans Affairs Federal Fiduciary (aka an uneducated/unlicensed, not court appointed responsible party), I have come to the conclusion that we are on the cusp of being a significant enough user group, that this should be investigated more. As the VA moves away from professionals like accountants, attorneys, wealth management groups, etc that can bill for extra services beyond the VA allowable commission compensation, more unlicensed professionals are being asked to take on the responsibility of managing incompetent veteran benefits.
>
>  Just like many online games these days give you a taste of the excitement and ask you to pay real world money to be a significant competitor, I would be willing to pay for a template that is specific to my needs. A template format that could fill in or provide all required info of your 21p-4706b annual/final accounting form, as well as track expenses for the beneficiary, and tools that allow simple management of bill pay parties (ie, tags that help with auto assign payee/category), information management of recurring bills, fiscal year reporting that cycles yearly to the day rather than the 1st of the month (with ability to +/- days to fit the statement end date as allowed by the VA or California supreme court), as well as the ability to carryover the balance from the last accounting (aka estate at beginning of period) so that last years ending accounting is added to the total funds under management for the current accounting.
>
>  This can be extended to court appointed (professional, non-corporate) fiduciary accounting's, and a whole host of other specific reporting requirements.
>
>  For the single user (ie, daughter, son, cousin etc.) a one time purchase of $10 for the report feature is more than reasonable, and for the professional (non-corporate) user $8-$10 per account would be beneficial to both the Quicken business and the professional fiduciary.
>
>  For me, at $10 per template purchase (per beneficiary account), this would be another $220-$290+ per year beyond the purchase of Quicken. This can save me 80+ hours per year in VA accounting's.
>
>  I would also recommend an option to add a single or a few bank accounts, rather than having Quicken find 40+ accounts associated with my master account, then having to Ignore all but 1 or 2 accounts found. This would save me a bit of time every-time I acquire a new case (add account number=12122121 and link , but ignore all others.).
>
>  I would also recommend charging for extra data sets. Basic Quicken gives 30 data sets, each 10 beyond 30 cost ?$$$?
>
>  This is all easy I theory, but will require thousands of hours in development, training, and support, so i know changes/additions aren't taken lightly, but this is definitely an area that can be improved. If all else fails, providing documentation that allows a power user to make there own templates like the American College of Trust and Estate Counsel, could be a draw to the product.
>
> Anyway, i just thought I'd throw a few things out there that might help the little people like me. More and more licensed fiduciaries have been rejecting the work as a VA fiduciary because all of the financial/liable risks, and the extremely low pay, which means the VA is looking more and more for the everyday Jill or Joe to take on the responsibility of looking after incompetent veteran funds.
>
>  Throw us a bone Quicken! Make our VA or Social Security appointed fiduciaries lives just a little more easy, allowing us to help more veterans in need.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> RC
>
>
>
> P.S. i have a bunch more ideas to make the software more friendly or powerfully but I'm not sure my suggestions are being heard.

> @Frankx said:
> While I can understand why some folks might use Quicken to track the financial activity of a small estate or trust, or the financial activity of an aged parent or relative, it is not designed for that purpose and I doubt that Quicken would ever consider entering into that market.  Nor would Quicken go through the significant development process to make changes for such a limited market.
>
> Personally, I'd rather see Quicken continue to work on current products and enhancing them (and I am speaking as someone who has administered and managed multiple estates and trusts). 
>
> If I could, I would vote a big NO on this idea.
>
> Just sayin'

Elaine2

Hi RC-- It has been some time since I have checked the community here and the post I made late last year about fiduciary accounting features in Quicken.

I really appreciated your lengthy response and your comment at the end about Quicken accepting suggestions. They do! I've submitted several via Eric Dunn's link to submit ideas. So go for it. I'm still digesting your commentary.

Elaine2

Thank you all for your insights and comments about estate administration using Quicken. Apparently there is some interest in this thread or topic as over 500 people have viewed the discussion.

What I have come to understand and appreciate since I wrote that initial post four years ago (good grief)! is that indeed a fiduciary accounting does require a different bread of software.

TheLogicEscapesMe

From what I gather from this discussion this in fact seems more of a "legal" problem than what kind of accounts Quicken supports and such.

One of the fundamental differences between Quicken and QuickBooks is traceability.

Quicken is for "personal" use all the way to its core. There isn't anything in it that proves that you haven't altered XX transactions/records. QuickBooks on the other hand was written for businesses and has this kind of tracking built in.

Whenever you cross that threshold that you have to "prove" to a legal body what you did, Quicken isn't "sufficient". And to put in that kind of traceability would probably border on a total rewrite of Quicken.

BTW as a few side notes.

One is that I seen Quicken used/recommended not because it is in fact the "perfect software for the job", but because of the total lack of software for the job, and people trying to find something that can be kludged. For instance Quicken is really only for the US and Canadian markets, but people outside of these countries use it (and complain that it doesn't support their country), because of such a lack of software that supports their country. So such recommendation have to really be taken with a grain of salt.

The second is that my Dad died a while ago, and my mother slowly progressed with dementia. Before that happened she made my oldest brother the power of attorney, and he manages her affairs. And that will include what happens when she dies. This is in New Mexico and there isn't any "trust" just a will, and he uses no "personal finance" software. He can handle it with very little difference than he handles his own finances. So I guess this problem really depends on the situation and the state. I don't really think it is as big of a problem for a lot of "average people", in states that aren't so strict.

Quicken Anja

Hello All,

The Community Support team regularly reviews long-standing posts and Ideas for relevancy and current interest. This Idea seems to have stalled and we would like to gauge the current interest in this request. 

If you would like to see this idea implemented, please add your vote and a comment explaining how this idea would be beneficial for you. More information, including steps to vote and how to submit your own Ideas for future product features/improvements, is also available here.

Thank you,

Quicken Community Support Team

DrAlloway

I am creating a Trust. Initially I will be the Trustee and have to transfer all assets into the my Trust. I will buy Quicken Trust and Will Maker software to do the legal paperwork. I want to do the bookkeeping in Quicken-Something. That way, when I die and my wife becomes the Trustee, the whole process will already be up and running. So she does not have to figure all this out while digging my grave. Given that Quicken makes Quicken Trust and Will Maker software, I just assumed that Quicken would have companion bookkeeping/accounting software to go with it. You are missing a big market here and most people who can afford software are creating Trusts to avoid Probate of the Wills. I am not talking about a law company who does this for dozens of clients, just enough for my wife to run my Trust when I am gone. Lots of people need that.

Frankx

Hi @DrAlloway,

Quicken is a fairly robust personal software application, and while it is intended for personal financial purposes, it can be used to account for trust purposes as well.  To do that, you'd just need to setup all of the trust's assets (bank accounts, securities accounts and related holdings, etc.) in a separate Quicken datafile, and then track those as you would personal accounts.  If your wife is familiar with Quicken, it would be an easy transition, if not, you can train her on how Quicken works.

Let me know if you have any followups.

Frankx

Jim_Harman

Please note that "Quicken Willmaker & Trust 2022" is a product of Nolo and is not related in any way to Quicken Inc or the Quicken personal finance software, except perhaps a licensing agreement for the Quicken name. 

Willmaker & Trust is apparently for creating Wills and Trusts.

Quicken Inc does not sell software that is designed to handle Trust accounting, although from the vote count on this Idea it appears that it would be very useful for some users (including me!). 

pmortho

i just want to know "how to" enter new product info from my business, update pricing, etc.