Transferring shares between accounts

Unknown
Unknown Member
edited August 2019 in Investing (Windows)
IDEAS - When transferring shares between accounts - Quicken looses the YTD statistics. How can it be correct? or can it? Using 2017 QWin version - I tried transferring at both the shares and account levels. Both lose their YTD totals. Any thoughts as to what I can try to correct this issue

I found the problem and a kludgy way to fix it. the software is using the transaction date of the transfer rather then the date acquired. it retains the date acquired in the Holdings Screen but is using the wrong date for calculations......should be a very simple fix on your end. pita on my end as i now have to edit every transaction and change the transaction date to the acquired date. if you need help fixing your code, please let me know as I have been writing financial code for many years (self plug - sorry)

Comments

  • Jim_Harman
    Jim_Harman SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Could you elaborate on "looses the YTD statistics"?

    What I have observed is that if you transfer shares between accounts, Quicken Removes the shares from the source account and Adds them to the destination, preserving the purchase date(s) and price(s). The amount invested recorded is the value as of the transfer date. I think this is as it should be for both the capital gains and performance reporting to be correct.

    OTOH if you separately Remove the shares from one account and Add them to the other, the amount invested is the value on the original purchase date, which I think makes the performance reporting wrong. 
    QWin Premier subscription
  • Greg_the_Geek
    Greg_the_Geek SuperUser, Windows Beta ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    You can also cut and paste share transactions from one account to another without losing YTD statistics.
    Quicken Subscription HBRP - Windows 10
  • anyoldjoe
    anyoldjoe Member ✭✭
    edited February 2017
    I think you are requesting a change that will screw it all up.  I hope they don't implement idea.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited March 2017
    sorry to say all but capital gains and performance statistics are always based on Date Acquired not transaction date - for example, a stock was purchases on 10/10/16 but entered in 12/10/16 - should not the 10/10/16 date be the date of record - for all subsequent activities - IMHO
  • Jim_Harman
    Jim_Harman SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Buckie,

    I think we all agree on capital gains - the cost basis should be based on acquisition date and the value at that time. However when shares with an earlier basis are added to an account, received as a gift or inheritance for example, the amount invested should be based on the value when the shares were received.

    For example, say on 1/1/2016 you receive 100 shares of XYZ valued on that date at $50.00 per share. The shares were purchased by the donor many years ago at $20.00 per share. On 12/31/2016 the price was $60.00 per share. For simplicity, assume there were no dividends. Your annual gain should be (6000-5000)/5000 or 20%, not (6000-2000)/2000 or 200%. 

    If you were to sell the shares on 12/31, your capital gain should be $6000-2000 or $4000. 

    I think you will find that Quicken always gets the capital gain calculation right.

    Also if you Buy the shares in one account and Transfer them to another on 1/1 it gets the performance right. However if you simply Add the shares to the destination account, it will incorrectly show your gain as 200%.

    If you want to see the total performance of a security that was transferred between accounts during the performance period, you need to need to enter a Transfer rather than separate Remove and Add transactions and include both accounts in the report.
    QWin Premier subscription
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited March 2017
    Jim,



    I agree with inheritance/gift scenario but not the other example. In fact having just transferred my shares with my broker they use the trade/acquired date not the transferred date for the performance stats. They had other issues which I asked them to correct. They accidentally transferred the positions as one lot not individual lots. They are reprocessing the transfer. Sigh.....



    Quicken shows/has the correct dates on the investment screen but uses the wrong date when calculating YTD & performance stats. Once I changed the transaction date on each of positions the stats were calculated correctly. It is really a simple change to the code. Dates are all there correctly but transfer/transaction is being used. Wrong "fake" code. Sorry....



    I transferred the shares, did not add them to an account
  • mshiggins
    mshiggins SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    Buckie said:

    Jim,



    I agree with inheritance/gift scenario but not the other example. In fact having just transferred my shares with my broker they use the trade/acquired date not the transferred date for the performance stats. They had other issues which I asked them to correct. They accidentally transferred the positions as one lot not individual lots. They are reprocessing the transfer. Sigh.....



    Quicken shows/has the correct dates on the investment screen but uses the wrong date when calculating YTD & performance stats. Once I changed the transaction date on each of positions the stats were calculated correctly. It is really a simple change to the code. Dates are all there correctly but transfer/transaction is being used. Wrong "fake" code. Sorry....



    I transferred the shares, did not add them to an account

    It sounds like you entered the transfer incorrectly.
    Quicken user since Q1999. Currently using QW2017.
    Questions? Check out the  Quicken Windows FAQ list
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited March 2017
    mshiggins -kind  of tough to transfer incorrectly - not many options - which account to transfer to,  one security or all securities - not much else - just hit enter/new or enter/done

    Jim --- your statement

    "Also if you Buy the shares in one account and Transfer them to another on 1/1 it gets the performance right. However if you simply Add the shares to the destination account, it will incorrectly show your gain as 200%."

    if you enter a security on 1/1/17 - you will not get any ytd stats - but if you enter another position from the previous year - say 12/31/16 - you will get ytd stats for 2017 - i bought a security on 2/14/17 - it appreciated a bit - but no ytd stats - however, i entered a "bogus" transaction with .0001 shares on 12/31/16 - and lo & behold - ytd stats appear - which are to gain/cost*100 - which is correct - that is the YTD ROI

    but thanks all for your responses..
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    @Buckie: For some reason you have chosen to be rather vague about losing the YTD statistics.  I am left to guess about what you are seeing, but I think you need to take a step back and look for a clearer understanding.  

    I made the effort in my test file to customize a portfolio view to include all the probable YTD statistics that might be an issue.  Those would be (all YTD selections): Amount Invested, Average Annual Return, Return%, Return, and ROI%.  I then took a look at those statistics for one particular security.  Then I did a Shares Transferred for part of one lot from that one security from one brokerage account to another.  This particular security had been held only in that one account.  After the transfer it was (obviously) held in two accounts.

    When looking at the same portfolio view at this point grouped by Account, the 5 statistics I listed above presented as NA for that security in the receiving account.  I would guess that is what you are referring to as lost data.  I believe that data is being presented correctly at that point.  

    My next step was to change the group by setting from Account to Security.  With that adjustment, all five statistics for that security were presented as real values (no NA).  Three of the five values were the same as before the transfer.  Amount Invested YTD and ROI% YTD were different.  ROI% is dependent on the Amount Invested figure and the Amount Invested value was consistent with Quicken's definition for that value (a definition many users have issues with).  

    Why do I say that the data presented "by account" is correct?  Because pretty much to make any calculation YTD Quicken needs to have a position in that security at the beginning point.  In this case, there was no position for that security in that account on the first of the year.  Thus Quicken is pretty much saying, "I cant figure out those YTD values.  I'll give you a NA."  If you had 1 share, 0.1, 0.001 share at the beginning point, I think Quicken would have given you data.  

    The proper (IMO) and much more meaningful solution to the NA presentation is to switch the grouping from By account to By Security (or other selection).  By changing the transaction date to match the acquisition date, you are changing history and creating misrepresentations for other performance parameters.  

    I'll leave the changes to Amount Invested and ROI for a different discussion is you are so inclined, but I will reinforce that because of the way Quicken manages Amount Invested, I do not rely on ROI figures except for buy-and-hold investments.  The ROI figures can become very deceiving.

    Now maybe you are seeing something totally different.  I am only guessing at this point.  If so, you need to dramatically increase the amount of information you are providing.

    HTH
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited May 2018
    Lurker

    I'll try to explain the situation to clear up the confusion - the following example


    in Account A a purchase of 100 shares of facebook on 1/2/17 - The Investment Screen shows

    an ROI of 17.81% with NA for both Return YTD and ROI YTD - 

    if a "starting" position of ,0001 shares from 12/31/16 is added - The Investment Screen shows 

    an ROI of 17.81% and 17.81& for both Return YTD and ROI YTD - The Correct Values



    When this information is transferred to Account B (transferring all shares in Account A)  - The Investment Screen shows 

    both Lots with the correct Acquired Date with 

    an ROI of 17.81% with NA for both Return YTD and ROI YTD -


    When the Transfer Transaction Date is Set the Acquired Date - The Investment Screen shows 

    an ROI of 17.81% and 17.81& for both Return YTD and ROI YTD - Again The Correct Value, Maybe Quicken's Algorithm is Wrong....Even without a "starting" position from the prior year, IT IS not difficult to calculate YTD Figures. Again  

     (Ending Market Value - Beginning Value [(in this case the initial cost of security] / Beginning Market Value (in this case the initial cost of security since you cannot divide by 0 ) * 100 - 

    Not difficult just an extra If Then Else or Case statement in the Code!

    This is how brokers handle the transfers - Acquisition (Record) Date of the Security - not only for Performance but for Dividend and Stock Related Transaction (Splits, Merges, SpinOffs, etc...)

    Not sure where the option

    "The proper (IMO) and much more meaningful solution to the NA presentation is to switch the grouping from By account to By Security (or other selection)."

    is located in the software. Looked for it but could not locate it. If you tell me where it is, I'll give that a try...


    Sorry I tried to cut and paste the Accounts Displays from Quicken but the paste did not work
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Buckie said:

    Lurker

    I'll try to explain the situation to clear up the confusion - the following example


    in Account A a purchase of 100 shares of facebook on 1/2/17 - The Investment Screen shows

    an ROI of 17.81% with NA for both Return YTD and ROI YTD - 

    if a "starting" position of ,0001 shares from 12/31/16 is added - The Investment Screen shows 

    an ROI of 17.81% and 17.81& for both Return YTD and ROI YTD - The Correct Values



    When this information is transferred to Account B (transferring all shares in Account A)  - The Investment Screen shows 

    both Lots with the correct Acquired Date with 

    an ROI of 17.81% with NA for both Return YTD and ROI YTD -


    When the Transfer Transaction Date is Set the Acquired Date - The Investment Screen shows 

    an ROI of 17.81% and 17.81& for both Return YTD and ROI YTD - Again The Correct Value, Maybe Quicken's Algorithm is Wrong....Even without a "starting" position from the prior year, IT IS not difficult to calculate YTD Figures. Again  

     (Ending Market Value - Beginning Value [(in this case the initial cost of security] / Beginning Market Value (in this case the initial cost of security since you cannot divide by 0 ) * 100 - 

    Not difficult just an extra If Then Else or Case statement in the Code!

    This is how brokers handle the transfers - Acquisition (Record) Date of the Security - not only for Performance but for Dividend and Stock Related Transaction (Splits, Merges, SpinOffs, etc...)

    Not sure where the option

    "The proper (IMO) and much more meaningful solution to the NA presentation is to switch the grouping from By account to By Security (or other selection)."

    is located in the software. Looked for it but could not locate it. If you tell me where it is, I'll give that a try...


    Sorry I tried to cut and paste the Accounts Displays from Quicken but the paste did not work

    Not sure where the option 

    "The proper (IMO) and much more meaningful solution to the NA presentation is to switch the grouping from By account to By Security (or other selection)."

    is located in the software. 
    See the following snips:  This is a portfolio view customized to one security and 2 accounts.  The "Before" shows data before 100 shares are transferred from Acct 1 to Acct 2 on 2/1/17.

    image

    The "After" shows the same view - same settings by account, with the NAs I think you have issue with.

    image

    What I consider "Better" for seeing those composite YTD numbers is to switch the view to By Security.  You are then seeing the YTD numbers for the security across both (all applicable) accounts.  That eliminates the NA issue (though identifies the Amount Invested issue I cited).    

    image
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited May 2018
    HI Q.Lurker

    sorry but I still the same results - no YTD %, still N/A - how can I paste in a "picture" of what I see - Tried Cut and Pasting - but no luck

  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Buckie said:

    HI Q.Lurker

    sorry but I still the same results - no YTD %, still N/A - how can I paste in a "picture" of what I see - Tried Cut and Pasting - but no luck



    Save your pic as a jpg. Start your comment here. (Depending on your actual setup/OS), click the camera icon at the bottom of the comment. Browse to your saved picture, and select it. It will paste into your comment.
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