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Further adventures in weird Quicken math

SnowmanSnowman Member ✭✭✭✭

Quicken 2017 R5 Build 26.1.5.5, PC Windows 10 Pro.  In my annual budget view I have selected the option to show the "To Date" column.  The income total if off by $2 BUT the expense total is off by a significant $13,494.  The "To Date" column for the individual expenses are all correct but the expense total is wrong.

The date file has been verified and it is fine.  It is so hard to trust any Quicken data as correct anymore.  The budget widget on the home screen is often wrong with the "workaround" being to remove it from the home screen then put it back, which I have had to do 6 times since January 1st according to my computer log.  If one has to constantly pull out the calculator and double check the math in Quicken what is the point of using it.

The expense portion of my budget has 173 rows, 28 of which are the completely useless "Everything Else" which are all $0 and can not be turned OFF.  I took about 2 hours to go thru all 173 rows of expenses to confirm that the individual rows are all correct. 

My YTD report gives the correct total for both income and expenses so why the discrepancy in the annual budget view?  This is not caused by any "uncategorized" expenses as I have none of those and to confirm I ran a report for just "uncategorized" expenses and received the "Quicken can not find any transactions that match your date and customization settings...."

I created a test file with some income and expense categories and the totals were all ok.  As mentioned earlier I have validated and super-validated my data file and it would seem the data file is not corrupted.  Somewhere there is an error in how the totals for the annual view are being gathered and calculated.

Comments

  • UnknownUnknown Member
    edited April 2017
    Yep, there's an error.  

    First off, I don't think Quicken is for you.  173 line items in your budget?  Really?  And I don't see how you can have 28 Everything Else line items...because you're supposed to have just one.  That's the "bucket" where, well everything else goes.

    We've had this discussion before.  I've seen some of your numbers.  I think you are trying to get Quicken, a personal finance software, to do some very sophisticated things that it just can't handle in your complex financial situation.

    The fact that you set up a test file and everything adds up just fine, means there is a mistake somewhere in your budget.  You may find it...you may not.

    But since, once again, you're probably the only one seeing this math issue, I doubt you're going to find much company in reporting this as a problem.  

    Really, and I don't mean to be flippant, I don't think Quicken is meeting your needs and I would move on to something else.  
  • SnowmanSnowman Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018

    Well if you subtracted all of the unwanted, unneeded, and totally unnecessary "Everything Else" categories then there are only 145 line items.  :-)  At the end I will attach three screenshots showing the expense categories for one of my homes.  As near as I can tell one "Everything Else" category is created for each subcategory.

    I challenge you to find any documentation that shows I am over the limits for the number of line items in a budget, number of accounts, number of categories or levels of subcategories, the number of digits allowed in any numerical figure anywhere!  https://www.quicken.com/support/working-categories-quicken in this there is no mention of ANY limitations.  As a matter of fact take a look at this https://www.quicken.com/support/size-or-capacity-limitations-quicken-data-file.  This states that the program should handle over 32,000 categories, over 32,000 subcategories and over 32,000 tags.  Now THAT IS SOPHISTICATED!!  I may have large numbers but nothing even approaching the $99 million, 999 thousand, 999 dollars and 99 cents.

    "The fact that you set up a test file and everything adds up just fine, means there is a mistake somewhere in your budget.  You may find it...you may not."  I have to disagree with that because it is a cop out, where would the mistake be?  All the individual items add up properly.  Tell me where?  The problem is in the database structure of the program and the way the program is written to put those totals together. 

    So you see I am totally within the operating parameters of Quicken as stated in the Size or Capacity Limitations of the Quicken Data File article. 

    I am not the only one seeing bad math.  There are many who are reporting the same flakey math.  Some of that may be traced to the program not closing or opening a database properly. 

    I have submitted my file several times for various issues and I have NEVER heard anything about "You have to many accounts, your numbers are too big or you have too many categories, subcategories, or tags.  So I will not be moving on to something else.  I will continue to try and get Quicken to be the best personal finance program that it can be. 


    image


    image

    image
  • UnknownUnknown Member
    edited October 2018
    I have found and reported errors in the Up to Date and "total" category numbers in the budget when rollovers in sub categories are being used.  In fact I have it turned off the To Date column for this very reason, it is useless with the bugs in it.
    Here is an example that shows the problems.  You don't have to go into all kinds of complicated calculations to see it:

    image
    Going just by the Medical, which is suppose to be the total for all the categories under Medical.  At the end of March I have a balance of 59, In April I have an actual of 0, and a balance at the end of the month of 179.  But the To Date amount is 3.

    There are a couple of problems here.  You will notice that the Dentist:Regular and Insurance are both set to rollover their amounts.  In April under Dentist: Regular you see that affect 59 + 176 = 235.  But look at the Medical line which should be a total of everything under it.  What it did is take only the April budget numbers and total them.  It isn't taking the rollover into account.

    Then we get to the To Date column.  3?
    It should be 235, or at least 179!
    But instead it is picking up the Insurance number.  In fact if I select to include reminders and puting in 323 for Dentist:Regular and 3 for insurance you will see that the 323 has no effect on the To Date number, but the 3, zeros it.
    image


    And here shows the wacky To Date in really fine fashion.
    No rollovers selected.
    image
    Select rollover for Insurance.  Notice that the budget and actuals are the same so they should have zero impact on any total for the balance.
    image

    Bottom line is don't trust the To Date numbers, and if you are using rollovers, don't trust the totals for categories with sub categories.

    As for Everything Else in the annual budget, you certainly can turn it off.  It is there because you don't understand that the settings mean in selecting categories.

    The "misunderstanding" comes in the multiple purposes of the "category" and the "category line" where there are sub categories.

    I will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    That is Everything Else.

    Example:
    image
    image

    Selected:
    image
    image
    And you will notice that you can put in a budget number for everything else.

    Also you will notice Other.  What is that?
    That is any transaction with the category of the main category like Auto above your your Property Taxes.
  • UnknownUnknown Member
    edited October 2018
    BTW, after seeing this, do you have an idea why I was opposed to add any more complication to the budget system?
  • SnowmanSnowman Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

  • UnknownUnknown Member
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not
    select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very
    convoluted and you lose the totals. 
    Look at my example again.  You certainly can turn off Everything Else.  Just don't select the parent category.  You will still get the total (as I said above).  The fact that you selected any sub category will get it on the report.

    This is not to be confused with this option:
    Budget Actions -> View options -> deselecting Show parent category rollup

    With that option off you get:
    image

    As for whether people should be allowed assign transactions to a parent category that has sub categories.  Certainly it would have been a lot less complicated if that was true.  And certain SuperUser push for people to do that when they get in trouble with this.  But the ability to do that predates the budget.  And customers HATE to loose any feature.  Not to mention its isn't a "easy fix", since you are basically talking about forcing customers to recategorize their transactions.

    On the subject of fixes and such.  Let's just say I will believe it when I see it.
    The fact that they rushed to fix a problem that lit up the forum doesn't really suggest "improved practices" to me.  In truth that bug was "minor", the workaround was easy.  And the fix was easy, once it was identified what was causing it.  The only reason it got such attention was because it was so visible.

    I do believe that they are working to fix old bugs.  But I also believe that they have been doing that for a number of years now.  And the biggest problem is that they are "pushed" both externally and internally to put out "features" that will they hope increase sales.  But they aren't very good at it.

    I'm sorry, but the Zillow feature should have been a simple feature to add.  Change the GUI in the register, a few dialogs, and  make calls to the server to get the estimate.  The crashes, and the refresh problems that resulted, show me that even the simplest feature add to Quicken isn't "simple".

    As long as they are spending all their time putting in features and then having to deal with getting them working for most of the rest of the year, I don't see them carving out the old bugs at a very fast rate.

    And these "bad patch releases" of the last few years are not a good sign for trying to force everyone to use the latest version.  Sure programs like FireFox have that model, but what was the last time you had a problem with a FireFox update?

    And yes on the calculations.  Basically when you can't count on them, and have to tell a person, don't count on that number, or do this workaround, it means that I personally can't recommend Quicken to anyone that isn't willing to spending huge amounts of time to learn what to do or not to do in Quicken.

    Note in general I don't use the budget system.  I'm not a "budget person".  I have never really had any need for such a system.

    This year I did use it just for an yearly overview to basically see if my income to expenses are balanced.  As in it is in "Budget only" view, and the only real number I'm interested in is the 2017 Summary total.  Well that number and of course making sure all the other numbers are correct and calculated correctly.

    So like several of the features in Quicken, I get looking at them only because I'm testing them for betas or to check out problem people have reported on here.
  • SnowmanSnowman Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    QPW, I know I could turn off Everything Else but then the whole thing becomes very messy to read and understand.  I am a "budget person" and have been for the last 40 years.  If all of the users, superusers would just band together and say enough is enough, I think then they would be more receptive to listening.

    When the math is bad, for whatever reason, then they need to be made to realize that they have a BIG problem.

  • UnknownUnknown Member
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    You are presuming SuperUsers, and customers in general more power than they really have.  Short of not buying Quicken (all at the same time), we have no such powers.

    And I fail to see why removing Everything Else becomes "very messy" I don't have any Everything Else sections, and I don't find mine a big messy.
    image
  • SnowmanSnowman Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    Ok when I turn the Auto parent category off (Select categories to budget) this is what is now displayed in the annual view "Everything Else" is now gone and of course the Totals for Auto are gone as well and it is the "Totals" that I look at first then drill down to see what is happening in any particular category.  Where is the "Budget View"?  I only have Annual View and Graph View.  This is under the Planning tab > Budgets correct?

    As for the customers and superusers, again if you go into it looking for it to fail it will.  We have all of the power.  Without the customers who buy it and the superusers and others here will help support it, the program would have died years ago. 


    image

  • UnknownUnknown Member
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    You are confusing two different settings.

    You want this setting on:
    Budget Actions -> View Options -> Show parent category rollup

    What you want to deselect is the parent category in the list of categories you have selected.
    As in you want:
    image

    Not:
    image
    As for the customers and superusers, again if you go into it looking for
    it to fail it will.  We have all of the power.  Without the customers
    who buy it and the superusers and others here will help support it, the
    program would have died years ago.
    True, but I also I'm also a big believer the world is governed by constraints, that tend keep things going the same way until the constraints change in a significant way.

    You might not know it, but one of the privileges of the SuperUser status is that they have a section of the forum that only they and the Quicken employees can access.
    In the past I have been part of that.  And there have been some very heated discussions, where it was very clear that the SuperUsers were in agreement on something (which rarely happens BTW), and still Quicken Inc didn't budge in their stance one bit on it.  There have of course been other times that they have taken the suggestions, and not even of the whole group, even of just one SuperUser.

    So the point is that even if you don't see it, that is already go on, and has been for many years.  And I was a part of that.  Also a major place to affect what gets changed is in the betas.  Which I and lot of the SuperUsers take part in, and have for many years.

    So I do feel that I have a pretty good idea of the "constraints", and I don't expect big shifts in this just because their is a "call to arms".

    It doesn't matter if the problem is because people don't group behind a given idea, or that Quicken Inc isn't willing or even able to do what is requested, it is the overall process/outcome that matters to me.

    It is like this country (US), where people say that their government doesn't represent them, but a "huge win" for one party or the other is a few percentage points.  In my book if you are talking about 51% vs 49% then that is a country divided on what they want, and to expect that the government is going to be passing thing that the whole country loves is ridiculous.  I personally think the government reflects the people very well, but the people expect the government to be better than they are.

    The point is that Quicken users are no different.  For most people the only important problem is the one they are having.  That is why even though every year you have people talk about how this is the "worst version of Quicken ever, and I have been using it for 20 years (and this is their first complaint)", what they really mean is.  That all the problems in the past were in parts of Quicken they didn't care about, but now there is a problem in a part they care about.

    And this goes for features too.  And people all the time come in here and in one breath say that what is important to them is fixing the bugs, and in the next ask for a new feature.

    So given the constraints of what Quicken Inc developers are capable of, the Quicken customers, the Quicken management, ...  I actually don't see that much "power".
  • SnowmanSnowman Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    QPW,

    Thanks, I did not know about that setting and its impact and apparently many of the support personal do not know about it either.

    You managed to not only get rid of the "Everything Else" for me BUT you also fixed, well almost fixed, the weird math issue.  Now even with the "To Date" column displayed the total expenses are only $2 off instead of $13,000+ off.  So there is something in the that interaction of those settings that causes the math errors and needs to be looked at.  At most a rounding error should only be $1.  My income was also only off by $2 as well. 

    I can't imagine (well actually I can having gone into situations where someone claiming to be a relational database expert and who was not created a Frankenstein database) what the source code for Quicken looks like. 

    The fact that by changing that one setting that you showed me, made the difference that it did (when it should have made no difference at all) is very telling indeed.

    I was a part of the Beta testing but dropped out because all of the surveys were slanted to get the results that the creator of the survey wanted, including what new "features" should be added.  HEY I have a idea for a really great feature!  How about a personal finance program THAT CAN DO MATH!!!!  That would be a great feature!!  :-).  The time frames for the testing was way too short so I stopped.  In many ways that is why the polls last fall were so wrong.  They had been written to get a particular response AND the audience was used for the poll was skewed as well.

    Thanks again for the heads up on the setting you were talking about.  One can get very lost in all of the "settings" scattered throughout.

  • UnknownUnknown Member
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    The error you see of $2 is because individual subcategories get rounded...and then added up.  It's not the total of all and then rounded.

    For example, if my Electric amount is $57.95, it shows as $58.  If my Water is $30.51, it shows as $32.  Quicken shows the total as $90.  If you add and round, it's $88.  

    I'm guessing no one is going to be that disturbed by a budget that is off by $2.  
  • UnknownUnknown Member
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    On the rounding error you might see what this shows:
    Budget Actions -> View Options -> Show cents

    On the surveys.  Yeah I agree, and in most cases I bet they don't even realize they are doing it.

    For instance a survey that says "vote on the features you you want".
    One was something like "Modernize GUI".

    Well two real problems with that.  One is that most people have no idea what that means.  When they basically changed to the Windows 10 look, people were surprised for some reason.

    Second, you will notice there is no way to vote against it.  Voting for another feature is all you could do, that isn't a "negative vote" for that feature.

    Also like I have said many times before people talk "fix bugs", but buy "features", and Quicken Inc certainly knows/slants things that way.

    For instance a survey like this is posted quite a bit: "Would you buy Quicken if we add feature XXX?"

    BTW on the settings, and complexity in general.

    This is something I don't think the average person grasps.

    Say I have some code what might even be called a "script" because it has no branching in it. You run the code, and see what it does.  It will continue to do the same thing over and over.

    Introduce one If statement, and the combinations of what can happen go up quite a bit.  And for every If statement, the number paths/combinations go up drastically just as if you were first restricted to walk down one street, and then change to being able to go in any direction on an street corner in a big city.

    And "settings" are of course carried out by if statements.  People simultaneously ask for "options", and "simplicity".  You see it on here constantly.  "Well if everyone doesn't like my idea then just make it optional".

    The decision to put in an option increases the complexity of both the GUI "what does this option really mean?", "how does this option interact with other options?", and the code to carry this out.

    One setting might affect the behavior of code all over the program, and it can be in quite complex ways.

    Here is one just one setting.  Starter, Deluxe, Premier, Home & Business, Rental Property Manager

    Or how about "hide category", that one affects, reports, views, lists, ... all over Quicken.  And to top it off different people have different opinions of what "hide category" means.

    But the ones that are really tricky are the ones that interact.  Some of the budget settings are like that.  As in the subject of this thread, with interactions with the rollover setting, and selecting of the parent category, ...
  • UnknownUnknown Member
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    BTW the complexity of testing can go up drastically too with each added option.  But even more than that is testing "coverage" will go down.

    In an ideal world whenever you added a new option you would add tests to check it out, and that it didn't affect anything else.  In practical world for a program like Quicken this isn't possible.

    So that is the reason for beta testing (to get different people using different features, with different setups), and the releasing to a few thousand users, and a waiting to see if there are any problems.

    Recently R5 sailed through beta because basically the people testing didn't set any account for startup.  If they had they would have seen the "Review payee...." problem right away.  But I think even more telling is that betas tend to focus on what they changed, not on "has this affected anything else in the program?"

    Can you imagine an option that appeals to say less than 1% of the people?
    And then the few people that use that option come in and say "don't you people test this software?"
  • Rocket J SquirrelRocket J Squirrel SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    Anyone heard of Test-Driven Development? It's kind of a new thing when compared with ancient Quicken. But it's real and not a pipe dream. My understanding is that Q employs some form of "agile" (maybe Scrum), but clearly not TDD.
    Quicken user since version 2 for DOS, now using QWin Premier Subscription on Win10 Pro.
  • UnknownUnknown Member
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    For what is worth from what I understand (second hand information), Quicken Mac development seem to be doing (at least in practice not necessarily "declared") Test-Driven Development, in that they are releasing features, and then refining them, before going on to other features.

    But taken from the link you gave:
    that relies on the repetition of a very short development cycle: requirements are turned into very specific test cases, then the software is improved to pass the new tests, only.
    That might have been said of my R5 example above, and you see it didn't turn out so good.

    If you design and build something that is very compartmentalized, then maybe you can do testing just for that one function that you are putting in.  But what if you are already working with a program like Quicken Windows, where it is clear that they change one thing in one place and it affects things in another?

    And yeah Quicken Inc declared they are "agile" about a year or so ago. 

    I can't count how many "new paradigm shifts" I have seen in my days.  For the most part in most companies they end up being words thrown around without any idea on how to actually make them work.

    Sometimes they are "born failures", as in something dreamed up by a college professor, that doesn't really work in the real life.

    Sometimes it is that the companies don't understand that it doesn't really work to just do some paperwork or follow an example out of a book without understanding the "objective" of those actions instead of just going through the motions.

    But I think most of all I think that to actually have a paradigm shift in a company is extremely rare, and expensive in a lot of areas, and in a lot or cases the companies aren't willing or maybe able to "pay the price".
  • SnowmanSnowman Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    QPW,  Totally agree about the interactions and complexity.  One other issue as well.  What "features" are global and what are local.  For instance you can go to Edit> Preferences>Register and select "Automatically place decimal point".  Granted it is in a section labeled "Transaction Entry".  One would assume (and be wrong) that this would apply to any "dollar" figure in Quicken.  It does not.  It is very local in that it only applies to a transaction.  In an account when you reconcile it you asked for an amount.  You enter the amount sans decimal and are surprised when 10000 becomes $10,000 not the 100.00 that was intended.

    If a variable is assigned as a local variable (when it should be global) or visa versa that too will cause unintended consequences.  The program should be organized so that it is not hard to find where the offending code is and fix it but I believe we all suspect that is not the case with Quicken.

    It all boils down to when you are going to write a program you need to have a clear set of written goals, you need to analyze the goals, BEFORE character one is ever written for the program, to see if the goals are realistic and obtainable.  A clear plan of action to get to those goals done, and a system in place to handle effectively any issues that will come up along the way and individuals responsible for each phase. 

    But I think most of all I think that to actually have a paradigm shift in a company is extremely rare, and expensive in a lot of areas, and in a lot or cases the companies aren't willing or maybe able to "pay the price".
    Kodak is a great example of this.  Did you know that Kodak created the very thing that lead to their demise?  Kodak invented the digital camera but either did not want it to see the light of day because it would decimate their film business or they just did not see the paradigm shift that was eventually going to bury them.  They failed to see all of pluses for digital (no more chemicals, more environmentally friendly etc.) and I believe only focused on the impact it would have on film sales.  They just stood at the end of the tunnel, saw the light and let the train run right over them.
  • SnowmanSnowman Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    QPW,  Totally agree about the interactions and complexity.  One other issue as well.  What "features" are global and what are local.  For instance you can go to Edit> Preferences>Register and select "Automatically place decimal point".  Granted it is in a section labeled "Transaction Entry".  One would assume (and be wrong) that this would apply to any "dollar" figure in Quicken.  It does not.  It is very local in that it only applies to a transaction.  In an account when you reconcile it you asked for an amount.  You enter the amount sans decimal and are surprised when 10000 becomes $10,000 not the 100.00 that was intended.

    If a variable is assigned as a local variable (when it should be global) or visa versa that too will cause unintended consequences.  The program should be organized so that it is not hard to find where the offending code is and fix it but I believe we all suspect that is not the case with Quicken.

    It all boils down to when you are going to write a program you need to have a clear set of written goals, you need to analyze the goals, BEFORE character one is ever written for the program, to see if the goals are realistic and obtainable.  A clear plan of action to get to those goals done, and a system in place to handle effectively any issues that will come up along the way and individuals responsible for each phase. 

    But I think most of all I think that to actually have a paradigm shift in a company is extremely rare, and expensive in a lot of areas, and in a lot or cases the companies aren't willing or maybe able to "pay the price".
    Kodak is a great example of this.  Did you know that Kodak created the very thing that lead to their demise?  Kodak invented the digital camera but either did not want it to see the light of day because it would decimate their film business or they just did not see the paradigm shift that was eventually going to bury them.  They failed to see all of pluses for digital (no more chemicals, more environmentally friendly etc.) and I believe only focused on the impact it would have on film sales.  They just stood at the end of the tunnel, saw the light and let the train run right over them.
  • UnknownUnknown Member
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    None of us know what resources the Quicken Inc team has regarding the actual number of programmers and the knowledge and capabilities of that team.

    Certainly, the "spaghetti bowl" of code that has transitioned from year to year to year hasn't helped things any.  I'm trying to think back and I guess Quicken for Windows (post DOS) started in 1990 (possibly even mid 1980's).  That's about 30 years of convoluted code and all sorts of different Windows versions as well.

    A total re-write is what's really needed...but would be an absolute disaster.  

    Even I agree with Snowman in that inconsistencies are evident throughout Quicken...and using Quicken is a combination of frustration, trial and error and finally knowing the quirky ins and outs of the product.  But that's a lousy software design.  
  • UnknownUnknown Member
    edited April 2017
    Snowman said:

    QPW,   I have rollovers turned off because they introduced a whole new world of crazy to the budget.  At the end of each month I manually rollover the amounts that I want to rollover.

    OK I am going to try an see if I understand what you said about parent categories and sub categories. 

     will take you Properties Taxes line for an example.
    If you go to that line and look at the budget field you will notice that you can't change it.
    The reason is because it is the total of the subcategories.  When you have sub categories that is the purpose of that line, to give the totals.

    So if that is its purpose, then what would it mean to select Properties Taxes in the category selection?  It doesn't mean to display that line, it is going to be displayed if any sub category is selected.  Selecting a category, that has sub categories means to include everything underneath it.

    You have selected Cobb County Property Taxes so that one is shown separately.  But what about any other sub categories, or if you had assigned Properties Taxes (not the sub categories) to a transaction?

    I agree that the parent category should ONLY be to show totals.  However, given that this is that categories purpose you should NOT be able to assign a transaction to the parent category like Quicken allows you to do.  I have "butted" heads with several on this forum who do not see the folly in doing this.   Coming from a background of designing large relational databases, depending upon how the database for Quicken is setup you REALLY DO NOT want to assign transactions to a parent category.

    That is why Quicken creates the "Other" category when you create a subcategory.  At least with "Other" you have to option to turn it off.  With Everything Else the only way I can get it to disappear is to not select the parent categories.  That makes the display of categories very convoluted and you lose the totals.  Also if you assign a transaction to a parent category you will loose the ability in reports where you are able to click on a subcategory, say Auto:Gas and see all of the transactions that apply to Auto:Gas.  You are not able, for good reason, to click the parent category Auto nor should you be able to assign a transaction to it.  That would seem to be an easy fix.

    I you approach a problem with the attitude that your solution will fail, it will.  I see your point BUT I am getting cautiously optimistic about Quicken getting this stuff fixed.  Look at how quickly they fixed the Ghost Box issues.  R6 was release within what 10 days of R5?  I have been in contact with some of the folks in India about the various issues in saving reports.  I sent them a video of exactly what I saw, because they did not think that it was an issue, now they see my point and they are going to start working on it.

    Finally, when errors appear in the math, and one of the very basic functions of the program is math, we should get very worried because if the cause is not found, where will that bad math appear next?  I am pretty good at seeing a whole bunch of numbers and seeing if they make sense or not.  Most users can not, nor should there be a need for them to do so.  Two plus two should always equal 4, if not Houston we have a problem.

    It all boils down to when you are going to write a program you need to
    have a clear set of written goals, you need to analyze the goals, BEFORE
    character one is ever written for the program.
    Lets imagine for a moment that was done when Quicken first came out (very unlikely considering it started with a very small amount of people working on it), that was over 30 years ago (Quicken hit its 30 year anniversary about a year or two ago).

    The likelihood of a program staying "focused" given different people developing it, with different skill sets, with different management, with different operating system, and on and on, it is basically almost impossible.

    Also it has been my observation that people see "soft" in the word "software" and take that to mean "It is possible change anything to do anything we like."  Interesting enough this isn't just a notion that upper management gets, programmers tend to have a big ego in what they can do in, and in what period of time.

    Software is more like constructing and maintaining a building than most people realize.

    If a person put up a house, and then later someone came by and said that they now want to "extend it" to a 20 story building, the engineers would immediately tell them that it can't be done.  In the "soft"ware world they have a good chance of convincing someone to try it.  Software has a foundation just like a building does.  And also there are considerations like "modular", but people think that "works for everything", but it doesn't.  No more than it works in constructing buildings.

    And the colleges and industry doesn't help this notion.
    There is the big stress on "make it flexible and modular" so that later when people want changes you can do them.  Well in my experience that "flexibility" leads to big, complicated, slow programs.  And modular is good, but limited.  The example given by Snowman is a good one.  How do you implement a feature as "simple" as adding a decimal point, everywhere a person enters a number?
    Well of course you right a function and call it. But I guarantee that there is both a cost to doing this, and there are going to be exceptions.  The cost of course is more code to run, and more complicate because you have to be able to call it in a way that is "layered", as in maybe you will want to do something else to every number entered in the future, and you need to have a way to add that.  And the "exceptions" will bite you, especially if the exception is like "do they placing of the decimal point, but not if XXX is true".  In the "modular" concept say with a house you would like each room to basically function the same as the the rest.  Ideally the rooms have basically the same services, and how they connect together and such.  In software this would be the concept of keeping the "options" as local as possible.  But there are times where you can flip a switch and basically the whole program works differently.

    We can't really anticipate what might be needed in the future, but it doesn't even matter if you have a perfect crystal ball.  The program I write on DOS on a machine of that time can't be written in a way that it anticipates the future, because I don't have resources of the future when I write it.

    I'm a firm believer in that the best code does what it needs to do, today, and only marginally plan for the future.

    But I also believe that over time most programs are going to turn into a Winchester House construction.

    And also you probably are not going to tear down the Winchester House and "do it right" because you don't have the time, and resources, and what's more a lot of people have come to like/depend on the quirky features.
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