First encounter with Quicken Mac 2017

gmalis1gmalis1 Member
edited January 23 in Investing (Mac)
Well, I kind of took the plunge and downloaded Quicken Mac 2017.  I've been (and continue to be) a Quicken Windows user for over 30 years.

And to say the least, I am not happy with Quicken Mac at all.

I'm sure all of these have been rehashed over and over again, but I'll just glance over a few glaring problems and weaknesses with it.

1 Data import was a mess.  Any investment transaction that had a SELLX or BOUGHTX transaction was botched miserably in Quicken Mac during the conversion.  Spent endless hours getting that straightened out.

2 Investment tracking is abysmal. I recreated most investment accounts, yet Quicken Mac still shows that I should add the cost basis.  Why?  I've provided the date I acquired these securities?  And of course manually updating security prices is cryptic, at best.  Awful interface to accomplish that.  

3 And, of course, Quicken Mac 2017 has beyond a doubt the absolute WORST reporting capabilities ever.

Can't track my principal payment into my expenses...because it's a transfer to the loan account.  How ridiculous is that?  It's an expense.  You made me make it a transfer, because...well, there's no other way to account for it in Quicken.  Yet, I can't include that transfer in the "complete" income/expense report.  Sure, I see it at the bottom as a transfer.  But it's an EXPENSE...let me see it as such.  I have to do the math myself to see what my "true" expenses are for the month?  And of course, that "pie chart" on the Home page doesn't show that transfer either.  Who designed this?  A five year old?

So, as Quicken's "chief complainer", I've added my two cents worth.  

After struggling with this over a couple of days, I feel much better getting this off my chest now.  

Carry on!

Comments

  • D H GrifD H Grif Member
    edited January 23
    For what it's worth. I too was a Quicken Windows user for thirty years. I also changed to Quicken for MAC. In my case two years ago. I had the same initial experience and disliked the MAC version. Now I would not go back. It took awhile but now I am totally glad I changed.  
  • gmalis1gmalis1 Member
    edited June 2017
    D H Grif said:

    For what it's worth. I too was a Quicken Windows user for thirty years. I also changed to Quicken for MAC. In my case two years ago. I had the same initial experience and disliked the MAC version. Now I would not go back. It took awhile but now I am totally glad I changed.  

    Can I ask you...why are you glad?

    Any specifics that you like better in QMac than QWin?
  • D H GrifD H Grif Member
    edited June 2017
    D H Grif said:

    For what it's worth. I too was a Quicken Windows user for thirty years. I also changed to Quicken for MAC. In my case two years ago. I had the same initial experience and disliked the MAC version. Now I would not go back. It took awhile but now I am totally glad I changed.  

    After getting used to the reports I like the flexibility of being able to adjust the categories, tags and so on. In my case it was a matter of time and getting comfortable with the different format. I like it now but I can see who some may not.
  • gmalis1gmalis1 Member
    edited June 2017
    D H Grif said:

    For what it's worth. I too was a Quicken Windows user for thirty years. I also changed to Quicken for MAC. In my case two years ago. I had the same initial experience and disliked the MAC version. Now I would not go back. It took awhile but now I am totally glad I changed.  

    My biggest beef with the reports is that any transfers don't get accounted for in income or expenses.

    When I make my mortgage payment, the principal is a transfer to the mortgage account.  There is no way to include that in the expenses.  Sure, I can get it to show at the bottom categorized as a transfer, but then I have to do the math to include it with the rest of the expenses.

    Same with my retirement income.  If I transfer it from an investment account to my checking account, I can't get that amount to show as income.  Once again, it shows as a transfer at the bottom of the income/expense report...and once again, I have to do the math.

    And the worst...the expenses pie chart on the Home screen won't show those transferred amounts at all.

    I know this has been communicated to Quicken Mac support...but come on.  This is really poor report design to begin with.  Not sure what the developers were thinking on this one. 
  • edited February 2018
    I've been using Quicken since they did their first one for the Mac.  This is by far the worst thing I've ever seen.  Reporting is a joke - I agree they let a 5 yr old design it.  Just because one can program an abysmal piece of code, doesn't mean one should do it.  Obviously Quicken is looking to lose customers and they are about to lose me.
  • jacobsjacobs SuperUser
    edited August 2018
    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.
    QMac 2007 & QMac Subscription • Quicken user since 1993
  • gmalis1gmalis1 Member
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    @jacobs.

    Come on, man.

    You know I'm not a new user of Quicken.

    Don't lecture me about the correct accounting standpoint of how things work in Quicken.

    I KNOW what a transfer is.

    What I don't agree with in Quicken Mac is that I can't get a damn correct income/expense report WITHOUT including certain transfers.

    And you know that.

    So, don't try to put a positive spin on this.

    I'm actually offended that you even addressed my post with that kind of response.  

    I'm very well aware of the shortcoming.

    I think it's an egregious error on Quicken's part that should have been fixed a long time ago...considering this has lingered since Quicken Mac 2013.  

    And the way it stands now, it makes Quicken Mac unusable for me. If I'm doing the math myself, what do I need Quicken for?
  • fanfarefanfare Member
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    So, let's see, Quicken for MAC has some serious architectural issues that prevent needed features or  enhancements ...? ... Sounds like Quicken for Windows, all over again.
  • jacobsjacobs SuperUser
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    @gmalis1, I wasn't trying to lecture you or offend you. More for the benefit of anyone else who might be reading this than for you, who I know are a longtime user, I wanted to correct something you said while acknowledging the very valid issue. 

    You wrote about a loan payment being a transfer: "How ridiculous is that? It's an expense. You made me make it a transfer, because...well, there's no other way to account for it in Quicken... But it's an EXPENSE... Who designed this?  A five year old?"

    The point I was trying to make is that it actually is *correct* that it is a transfer of funds, not an expense, from an accounting standpoint. But, with a capital B, it *is* ridiculous that you can't choose to create an expense report which has this transfer show up as an expense since, from a common-sense pocketbook standpoint, it functions like an expense. I get that; I agree with you completely about that. And I don't know how it's possible that the developers built it this way and didn't see that this was a significant problem. I absolutely wasn't trying to put a positive spin on it.

    Now, that said, here's why it's a tricky issue for the developers to navigate to not solve one problem by creating another: not all transfers should show up as expense or revenue. If I go to an ATM and withdraw $100 in cash, I record that in Quicken as a transfer from my checking account to to my cash account. And I don't want to see that on a report, or in a budget, as an expense; the expenses get recorded when I spend the cash and enter those spending transactions. Likewise, if I pay my credit card bill, that's a transfer of money from my checking account to my credit card account -- and again, it shouldn't show up as an expense, because the expenses are the credit card transactions in that account. So Quicken needs to provide a way for users to *selectively* include some transfers as income/expenses for some reporting and budgeting, without simply treating all transfers as income/expenses. They should be able to do this, and need to do this -- and, as I wrote, Marcus has acknowledged this is something they know they need to do and have on their development road map.
    QMac 2007 & QMac Subscription • Quicken user since 1993
  • smayer97smayer97 SuperUser
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    For anyone interested in IDEAS related to these ponts, you can add your VOTE to:
    First, click on each underlined link above to go there, then click VOTE at the top of THAT page, so your will vote count for THAT feature and increase its visibility to the developers.

    While you are at it, you may want to add your VOTE to related IDEAS found on the 
    Click on each underlined link, then follow the instructions to add your vote to more related ideas. 

    (If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.)
    If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.

    (QM2007, Canadian user since '92)
    Have Questions? Check out these FAQs:
  • smayer97smayer97 SuperUser
    edited August 2018
    For the original post regarding 1., for those that do not know this, the reason this happens is because QM2017 does not support linked accounts. You can add your VOTE to Add ability to link accounts to brokerage accounts.

    First, click on the underlined link above to go there, then click VOTE at the top of THAT page, so your will vote count for THIS feature and increase its visibility to the developers.

    While you are at it, you may want to add your VOTE to related IDEAS found on the List of Requests Related to Investments. Click on the underlined link, then follow the instructions to add your vote to more related ideas. 

    (If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.)
    If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.

    (QM2007, Canadian user since '92)
    Have Questions? Check out these FAQs:
  • gmalis1gmalis1 Member
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    Gee, you mean just like in the Windows version?

    Duh!

    In the meantime, I don't see how anyone can function effectively with an Income/Expense report that DOESN'T allow you to select certain transfers (duh, the way Quicken Windows does).

    Or, a "HOME screen" that is totally useless reporting my monthly expenses without selecting certain transfers (duh, the way Quicken Windows does).

    This, in my estimation, is beyond poor programming.  It's poor initial design, it's gone on way too long and makes this software...well, I can't say it because I'll get banned for life on this forum.

    What is Quicken thinking with this?  Don't they see that this is a critical use of Quicken...and by omitting it (or ignoring it, I'm not sure which) it makes the software completely useless.

    If I want a listing of my transactions, I can just download the transactions into a spreadsheet.  Heck, I can get better reporting from Excel than I can with Quicken.  At least the calculations will work in Excel, which is more than I can say with the calculator in Quicken.  

    If Quicken Marcus is looking at this...I implore him to get this remedied post-haste!  This should be priority number one on Quicken Mac's list to get fixed.

    Personally, how does anyone else use this software with this glaring omission?

    As of now, I would give Quicken Mac ZERO stars in a review.  Totally unusable functionality.  
  • smayer97smayer97 SuperUser
    edited August 2018
    Also for those that do not know, you may also want to add your vote to requests found on the List of Obstacles and Hindrances for Migrating from QM2007 or QWin to Quicken for Mac
    This is a special list that draws attention to requests specifically related to this topic. Click the underlined link to visit that page to see the selection and add your VOTE to promote that list, to encourage others to vote. Then click on the links there to vote on the specific requests.

    While you are at it, I also highly recommend that you browse through the IDEAS section of this forum and VOTE for the request of each of the missing features to be added back into Quicken for Mac....to help direct the priorities of the developers.

    This will help make the transition easier for you when you are ready to upgrade by seeking to have the features you are used to in Quicken end up in the latest version.

    To do that click on this underlined linkfollowing the instructions then VOTE to your heart's content. Your VOTE matters! 
    Categorized List of IDEAS of Feature Requests and Enhancements to Vote On

    (If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.)
    If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.

    (QM2007, Canadian user since '92)
    Have Questions? Check out these FAQs:
  • smayer97smayer97 SuperUser
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    BTW, QM2007 also works like QWin in this regard for transfers.
    If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.

    (QM2007, Canadian user since '92)
    Have Questions? Check out these FAQs:
  • gmalis1gmalis1 Member
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    So, who was the development or programming geniuses that took that functionality out in QM 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017?  

    That's an awful lot of years without doing it "the right way"!
  • smayer97smayer97 SuperUser
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    Of course, they did not take anything out. A new development team was used to develop a brand new product for the Mac, starting with QEM (2010-2013) (Quicken Financial for Life circa 2008 that never saw the light of day not withstanding), and yet another development team was re-assembled to continue with 2015 to 2017 (starting in about 2014). And these features have yet to be added back in.

    But you would be right in pointing out that it seems silly that they have not leveraged past development in working on this "new" iteration of QMac. But I guess part of the problem is having to deal with baggage left behind by previous development teams.
    If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.

    (QM2007, Canadian user since '92)
    Have Questions? Check out these FAQs:
  • gmalis1gmalis1 Member
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    So...can I ask...how do you function with this software, when you don't get the correct amounts for income vs expenses...when you don't see the true expenses on the Home page...when you can't budget for the true amount of my mortgage paid?

    What's the workaround?  Or is everyone who uses Quicken Mac just ignoring the problem?  Because, unless there is a workaround, this is worthless to me. 

    Recording and retrieving data is one thing.  Reporting and interpreting that data is where the power comes from.  
  • smayer97smayer97 SuperUser
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    I certainly don't. I find QM2017 is just not capable of handling my needs that QM2007 satisfies quite well...that's my work-around for now.

    I agree...this software is only as good as it's ability and ease to extract information (vs just data) in a meaningful and organized way.
    If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.

    (QM2007, Canadian user since '92)
    Have Questions? Check out these FAQs:
  • jacobsjacobs SuperUser
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    @gmalis1: For what it's worth, I'm only familiar with the Mac products, so I don't know (other than what I read on this forum) how the Windows products work.

    I think the key part of the problem is that when the current development team was assembled to build the current Quicken Mac product on the foundation of the code created by a previous development team for the under-powered Quicken Essentials, they tried to take an approach of re-thinking every feature and operation from scratch. The old Quicken 2007 for Mac was a 20 year-old code base they had had to abandon because of old technologies it was built on, and Quicken for Windows is a 30 year-old code base that, for all its benefits, has plenty of bugs people complain about all the time on this site -- many of which are due to it being old and complex code that's hard to patch/update/enhance without breaking something somewhere.

    So rather than try to create a new Quicken Mac product that worked just like Quicken for Windows, they tried to create a new product where each feature and operation was re-evaluated and re-thought to avoid creating something that was needed or desirable eons ago which was not needed today. That's not inherently a bad idea: don't duplicate the cruft and complexity of a 30 year-old program. But the problem is that in this mindset of re-creating and re-envisioning, they sometimes simply missed how people used the software, or why certain features were present, or why certain features had been tweaked to operate in a certain way.

    Or in some cases, there are multiple layers of complexity involved in building a feature the way the Windows product works, and they decided -- sometimes out of desire not to unnecessarily build in complexity for things people no longer use, and sometimes out of necessity due to having a very limited programming team to create this pretty complex software from the ground up -- they'd build a feature in it's most basic form first, then gather feedback from customers, and then make enhancements driven by customer feedback. This "minimum viable product" or iterative approach sometimes works well for new products, but I think where they miscalculated is that that they would be releasing it to a community where many users had literally decades invested in using the legacy Mac product or the Windows product -- so the build-it-in-stages iterative approach feels annoying, aggravating, or downright stupid to users who can't understand why it doesn't "just work" like the legacy Mac or Windows software does.

    Again, I'm just trying to explain a bit about how we got here; I'm not making excuses or apologies for the shortcomings in Quicken 2017. (Heck, while I continue to test Quicken 2017, I still use Quicken 2007 for Mac for my official record-keeping, because it still works and better fits my needs.)

    There are some limitations that are annoying but relatively easy to work around. There are others than can't really be worked around. For example, because Quicken 2017 for Mac only tracks investments on a FIFO basis, but that doesn't match reality in many cases -- so Quicken incorrectly calculates cost basis and unrealized gains for many people's investments. That's pretty much impossible to work around unless you track it external to Quicken. Certain reports which can be created in legacy Quicken Mac or Quicken for Windows simply can't be created in Quicken 2017 for Mac, which keeps some users (including @smayer97) from moving to Quicken 2017.

    In the case of transfer not showing up as revenue or expenses, it there's at least a work-around for reports. Depending how many loans you have, to how many withdrawals you have from investment accounts, the workaround can be as simple as adding two numbers in different tartars of the report. Is it annoying to have to add a total from the transfer section to your expenses? Yes, absolutely -- but you can get there by adding the numbers. Is it possible to budget without Quicken adding your mortgage payment or your monthly transfer to savings? Again, yes, you can do it by manually adding values, but it's incredibly annoying to have to do so. So, to me, this limitation doesn't make the software worthless; I can get the data I need, but it makes me do manual calculations that make me grumble -- but I can get there. And I hope they will continue to enhance the software so that it will eventually work the way I (and many others) expect it to.
    QMac 2007 & QMac Subscription • Quicken user since 1993
  • smayer97smayer97 SuperUser
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    And that is why I would hope there is prioritization of the issues that are actually blocking users from migrating from QM2007, or even QWin, as per the list posted below.
    If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.

    (QM2007, Canadian user since '92)
    Have Questions? Check out these FAQs:
  • gmalis1gmalis1 Member
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    @jacobs.

    I'd be better off using an abacus then.  

    Why even use Quicken, if it can't do the simplest of financial calculations...such as "What do I spend every month"?

    It downloads the data...yet it can't do the math for me?

    Rubbish.  
  • gmalis1gmalis1 Member
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    BTW, EVERY OTHER personal financial software that I have tested...Windows or Mac...can do this.

    But yet Quicken Mac can't.
  • gmalis1gmalis1 Member
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    I'm going to return Quicken Mac 2017...as it does not meet my needs.

    And yes...I know how to do that so don't send me the link to contact Quicken about a refund.  
  • jacobsjacobs SuperUser
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    @gmalis1, you're railing at something everyone, including the product manager, agrees need to be changed. I've tried to give at least some explanation how things developed this way (although I certainly am not privy to any of the design decisions they made to land us exactly here and I can't explain why certain things were prioritized over others). You reply by repeating what the problem is. I get it. I understand the problem. And I've agreed with you that it needs to be changed.

    I don't find the need to manually add two numbers on a report I generate occasionally  makes the program "worse than an abacus" to me. It does a lot for me, but clearly not all I want it to. But we all use Quicken differently, and depend on it for different things, so if you feel it truly is "worthless" to you, and you feel you can't live with it until they change it, then you should move to whatever software you feel works better for your needs. Unfortunately, repeating the complaint here over and over isn't going to change the current reality, and it probably isn't going to get a change implemented any sooner.

    I'm sorry my responses have aggravated you; I was only trying to help explain, not justify. Since it seems we're going in circles, I'll bow out of the conversation now. 

    EDIT: Oops, I was typing my reply while you were posting that you were throwing in the towel on Quicken for Mac, and I didn't see your post until after I submitted mine. (I'll be interested to know which program you choose, since if the brain trust proceeds with the subscription plan as originally spelled out, I might be looking in a few months myself.)
    QMac 2007 & QMac Subscription • Quicken user since 1993
  • gmalis1gmalis1 Member
    edited June 2017
    jacobs said:

    @gmalis1: Just to be clear, what Quicken is showing actually *is* correct from an accounting perspective -- but it's not useful for users for the reasons you've stated.

    When you take money from an investment account and put it in your checking account, that is a transfer of one asset to another -- not income. (It may or may not be taxable depending on whether it's coming from a retirement account, and the tax treatment can even be different for federal and state -- but that's a separate matter.) Similarly, when you pay down the balance of your loan, it is a transfer reducing an asset (your checking account) and reducing a liability (your mortgage account). In accounting, both of these transactions affecting your account balances would show on a balance sheet, not an income statement.

    However, I'm not arguing at all that Quicken doing it this way causes confusion/inconvenience for users who consider these transactions, as a practical matter, income and expense. There needs to be a way for Quicken to allow users to include or exclude transfers -- from both reports and for budgeting. (Because how useful is a budget that can't include a loan payment?) Product manager Marcus has acknowledged that this is a shortcoming they need to address, and plan to at some point in the future; he said that it required some significant work in the architecture of the program, which is why it hasn't been a quick fix already addressed. But until the time they address this, it will be a point of pain for Quicken Mac users.

    I'll post it in the Lounge.  Thanks.  Sorry to vent at you.  
  • edited June 2017
    gmalis1: Like you, I'm a long-time (and still current) QW user. I've been working with QM17 since it was released. Like you, I was horrified by QM17's out-of-the-box incapabilities.

    Below are the workarounds I came up with or learned in order to make QM17 do most what you want (the home page pie chart is a lost cause, as are the things noted by jacobs).

    Read em and weep. If you're feeling surly about the product, the workarounds in these write-ups will do nothing to improve your disposition. But they work, and when implemented QM17 becomes a fairly effective tool. More effective than Mint+MintToReport, which we've both used.

    Why do the workarounds, then, if they're such a pain in the ****? Performance. QM moves like a rifle bullet compared to Quicken for Windows. Honestly, it's a little intoxicating.

    https://getsatisfaction.com/quickencommunity/topics/quicken-for-mac-2017-workaround-for-transfers-no...

    https://getsatisfaction.com/quickencommunity/topics/my-method-for-excluding-transactions-by-tag-in-q...

    https://getsatisfaction.com/quickencommunity/topics/quicken-mac-creating-category-summary-report-for...
  • gmalis1gmalis1 Member
    edited June 2017
    Appreciate the comments.

    I read the links...but I'll have to re-read them again with a clearer head in the morning.

    Seems to be very convoluted and involved for something that should be so simple.

    As a matter of fact, another Mac software that I purchased a few months back does all that extremely easy without all the hoops that we have to jump through with Quicken Mac.

    So, rather than find one workaround after another, I'll just use the other software.

    Don't ask me to name it.  Quicken Community rules prohibit me from naming any outside product...and they prohibit me from criticizing THEIR product.  

    One bone of contention...I find Quicken Mac 2017 agonizingly slow for me.  Whether it's starting the software or downloading transactions, it's way slower than my Quicken Windows 2017 with data since 1985.  
  • edited June 2017
    Definitely want a clear head to read the write-ups, and I say that as the author. Convoluted understates the matter, in my opinion. The fact that these workarounds are necessary to make QM17 perform essential functions is ridiculous.



    I like the program nevertheless, and I've found Marcus, the product manager, and his team to be responsive to users. Even with the recent 4.5x troubles, Marcus has come into the forum to take his lumps and try to help users. Such accountability I've never seen from the Windows team.



    And they have added functionality in slow, steady increments. The reality is they have limited resources and they started almost from zip. One needs to have sober expectations to commit to using the program. Or use a different program.



    I have used the competing program you alluded to (rhymes with "schmanktivity"). I offered my assessment of if in one of your threads which Mangement vaporized. I didn't care for it. The layout, I think I wrote, was like a Chinese crossword puzzle to me. It is a bit more capable than QM17, but not by much and not in the areas I care about. Nonetheless, I could see why it has a healthy following. Each to their own.



    I can't imagine why QM17 would actually be slower for you than QW17. It's hard for me to envision what being slower than QW would even look like. It's become such a drag to use, to the point where I only wheel it out when I really need the big guns.
  • gmalis1gmalis1 Member
    edited June 2017

    Definitely want a clear head to read the write-ups, and I say that as the author. Convoluted understates the matter, in my opinion. The fact that these workarounds are necessary to make QM17 perform essential functions is ridiculous.



    I like the program nevertheless, and I've found Marcus, the product manager, and his team to be responsive to users. Even with the recent 4.5x troubles, Marcus has come into the forum to take his lumps and try to help users. Such accountability I've never seen from the Windows team.



    And they have added functionality in slow, steady increments. The reality is they have limited resources and they started almost from zip. One needs to have sober expectations to commit to using the program. Or use a different program.



    I have used the competing program you alluded to (rhymes with "schmanktivity"). I offered my assessment of if in one of your threads which Mangement vaporized. I didn't care for it. The layout, I think I wrote, was like a Chinese crossword puzzle to me. It is a bit more capable than QM17, but not by much and not in the areas I care about. Nonetheless, I could see why it has a healthy following. Each to their own.



    I can't imagine why QM17 would actually be slower for you than QW17. It's hard for me to envision what being slower than QW would even look like. It's become such a drag to use, to the point where I only wheel it out when I really need the big guns.

    Thanks for all the info, the workarounds and the responses.

    I think at this time, I'm going to use the alternative Mac software and just forego Quicken Mac until that time that they fix the reporting and Home Expenses graph to include transfers.

    I'll play around with it from time to time, but I'm certainly not going to rely on using it for anything of substance since I can't get an accurate dollar amount with the software without either calculating the amount myself (idiotic, to say the least...that's the software's job) or jumping through four or five hoops...which I'm not inclined to do when other software does it with no hoops.

    This lack of functionality is an egregious oversight on the Quicken Mac's development teams part.  

    As to speed comparisons, my Quicken 2017 H&B Windows has data from 1985...a very large data file.  I run it on my 2009 (yes, that's a 2009 white "clamshell") MacBook running Sierra with 8 GB RAM and a 500 GB solid state hard drive, using Parallels and a Windows 7 virtual machine.

    The RAM is maxed out and the solid state drive I installed a few years back makes my MacBook super speedy.  That made a huge difference in performance.  So much so, that I'm hesitant to spend over two grand to get the MacBook Pro I really want now.  The only issue is that graphics resolution isn't great because of the limitations there.

    But my Quicken 2017 H&B opens right up, takes about 20 seconds to download transactions and security prices and hums along perfectly.

    On the other hand Quicken Mac 2017 takes a while to open after entering my password and downloading the same transactions from the same financial institutions takes over a minute...on a good day.
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