Can we finally get real RSU (account and transaction) support?

joe kane

Scan through this site and you'll find multiple requests for Quicken to support RSU accounts and RSU transaction over the years here.  At best we are left with manual workarounds to deal with the vesting/income/gains.

I sent several requests to intuit over 12 years on this topic to no avail, including numerous surveys and feedback comments.

 I'll take the opportunity to appeal to the new owners to request that we finally get this feature implemented.

 And those users who have asked in the past, please indicate your support.

Unknown

I've had RSU transactions over the years and had to muddle through manual workarounds.  So I agree. We need real RSU support.

Unknown

Doesn't make sense that Quicken supports employee stock options but not RSUs. I'd bet that 10X more professionals get RSUs than options, and it's been this way for like ten years.

Unknown

Agree... need to have a way to track RSU's.  [removed - off-topic]

Tom Young

Since I've never, ever used any of the Employee Stock Options features in Quicken perhaps I'm missing something here.

There are, really, only two kinds of employee stock options: NQSO and ISO.

An RSU is a NQSO
An RSU requires no out of pocket cost
An RSU "exercises" on the day it vests

So I tried entering a simply RSU for 100 shares.  I set the option price at the smallest "per share exercise price" I could at $.000001 per share.  The RSU vested 6 months after the grant.

As far as I could see this worked just fine.  (Quicken didn't compute the compensation created by the exercise, but I'm not sure that Quicken does that in any case.)  And after the RSU vests the stock is just plain-vanilla stock.

So specifically, what's not working with RSU?

joe kane

To AG:

I see comment on this topic going back 3 years.  If all of the
comments/posts on this topic where combined it would be much larger in
the eyes of Quicken.

Yes, and I've commented on it and asked for it repeatedly well before that on every medium possible, including questionnaires and calls to Intuit. There were a few support board/site conversions and redoes over the years before 'get satisfaction' , and history lost. Intuit wasn't listening.  I tried to resurrect it again for the new ownership to consider.  This, would be a real 'new feature' the the program.


To Tom Young:

Since I've never, ever used any of the Employee Stock Options features in Quicken perhaps I'm missing something here.

Yeah, you probably are. Go look at the Quicken ESPP account, and its (full) transaction support, and how it automatically calculates regular income and capital gains from the transactions. Look at the nice wizards that let you enter the period info, employee discount, start and end dates.  Its is fairly easy to  work and it accounts for everything. I'd kill to have some nice reporting to along with that, but I make do.

Similar for the stock option account. As many have noted, these grants are more rare these days as the accounting is not favorable to the corporations.  Still, quicken supports them with a special account, and handling for the transactions.

RSUs are really the standard now.

Many users have cribbed up workarounds for RSUs as you describe, that doesn't compute the income versus capital gain for you, handle the fact that a portion of the RSU units are typically 'pre-cashed' out by the broker/employer for your tax witholding.


I have worked out my own kludge system using a standard brokerage  holder account, and a system of deposits and semi-fake acquire stock events to manually vest them, and to handle the tax treatment and income. This gets most of the accounting right, the income, the taxes,  but not the capital gain. And its difficult, error prone and requires a lot of counter intuitive entries and double-tracking.

Unknown

An RSU is not a NQSO.

You may have found some workaround to trick Quicken into as far as you can tell tracking RSUs, but Quicken does not properly support RSUs, and none of the documentation describes to customers how to do this.

mshiggins

I would say the requests for RSU handling go back at least 10 years. Some of the older requests have likely been archived.

Tom Young

An RSU is a "nonstatutory stock option", legally. 

It's just another "flavor" of a nonstatutory stock option like the more widely-known "NQSO."  It happens to have a strike price of $0 and it "exercises" itself at vesting.

Mechanically the Quicken "NQSO" option works just fine except for Quicken's inability to accept a strike price of $0.  The only obvious defect in Quicken's programming of a "NQSO" is the lack of an entry for "compensation" at exercise/vesting.  That said, the basis for the acquired stock is correct.

joe kane

It works just "fine" except for the strike price, the tax handling with pre-cashed rsus, the regular income calculation versus capital gains.

In other words, it doesn't really work.

I think it goes back to your original comment, you don't use Quicken for employee stock.  I've been using for the same for many years, and I think the RSU account type, with transaction handling, standard wizard for entry periods, vest etc. is a long overdue feature.

I thought that  others who use it for this, (try to use it for this) would agree, and we might get some attention on it.

mshiggins

The idea has been posted multiple times, but even if you added up all the votes from all the posts you wouldn't have more than 25 votes.

joe kane

Well, that could be the case.  I put the recent vote up, and you'll note it took some months for some to see or find it.  The site organization and concentration tends to be on the issues; I don't find it the most straightforward to navigate and find things like this; but I'm not trying to debate you on this.

If you take a look at the stats on the other 'ideas/feature requests' in the ideas section, its also hit or miss in terms of count. some ideas are in "planning" with one or two votes.  You have to expect that most users aren't even frequenting this site. 

Quicken put out a survey recently to get feedback on 'how you use quicken' , but the concentration and questions did not come near to operation or real use.

I put it out there for some attention, and I  think there there should be a sizable percentage of Quicken users with RSUs.

Tom Young

Beyond allowing for a "strike price" of $0 and the fact that Quicken doesn't automatically create the compensation created at exercise/vesting, I just don't see any other accounting "defects." 

Which is not to say that Quicken couldn't throw more "wizards" at this, but speaking as someone who does have a deep understanding of the tax implications on non-staturoty options, I'm not convinced that any "kludge" accounting is really necessary at all.

I think people get confused by the machinations that can go on with any nonstatutory option like the "withholding" of shares for taxes or exercise, "sell to cover" transactions, "same day" sales and the like, and it hasn't helped that brokers either don't have to issue a 1099-B for same day sales and also don't have to report the correct basis for the sale of stock acquired via nonstatutory options

joe kane

Tom,

So you fully understand the tax implications, thats great. Many people don't.  I do, but the point of this software is to make the accounting straightforward and automated where possible.  And it should automatically feed the income and tax planning.

You don't use it for this accounting, and never needed to work with any of the resulting data.

ESPPs are a simple exercise in Quicken. Clearly, someone thought it was a worthwhile feature to implement the support for ESPP.

RSUs are not. Again, I'll quit with the debate here.  The support is asymmetric, largely because the ESPP feature came about when Intuit was still developing (and valuing the S/W). 

By the time RSUs became the most common form of  Incentive some 12 years ago, Intuit had effectively stopped developing for the most part.

Unknown

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Step Up Cost Basis based on Tax Paid.


When company stock is vested and tax is paid the Cost Basis will change from the purchase price.  There is no easy way to track this in quicken and requires that the shares be removed and then added with a new cost basis which impacts cash holdings and is very confusing.  We should be able to have a field that will track an updated cost basis that can be used when selling shares.

Tom Young

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled RSU Support.


"When company stock is vested and tax is paid the Cost Basis will change from the purchase price."

I assume you're speaking either to restricted stock that vests or an RSU that vests.  But in either case the taxes you pay on the compensation created by the vesting absolutely and in no way affects your per-share cost of the stock received.

If some amount of stock is either withheld by the company or sold "for taxes" that does affect the number of shares you ultimately end up with, but not the per share cost and can be easily handled by selling some of the gross shares - typically at either no gain or loss or a small loss due to commissions - to come to the net shares you end up with after the sale.

Essentially the accounting comes down to the following:

Debit (increase) Cash    $XXXX
Credit (Increase) Compensation $XXXX

(To recognize gross number of shares vesting times per-share FMV used by employer to calculate gross compensation.)


Debit (Increase) Employer Stock   $XXXX
Credit (Decrease) Cash                             $XXXX

(To recognize that the gross award in shares was vested as a "no cash transaction".)


Debit (Increase) Cash        $YYY
Credit (Decrease) Employer Stock    $YYY

(Sale of stock "for taxes".)


Debit (Increase) Income Taxes  $YYY
Credit (Decrease) Cash                      $YYY

(To record taxes paid to various taxing authorities.)

As I said that third entry - a sale of some of the stock - might have a small loss entry to the accounting if commission was charged.

You can also see that the series of entries do not affect cash at all.

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: Step Up Cost Basis based on Tax Paid.

WindyCityME

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Quicken Please Update Quicken Product to Handle Restricted Stock Units....Please ....


Many companies use Restricted Stock Units (RSUs) as a form of Compensation to various employees.  Quicken Handle Employee Stock Purchase Programs and Stock Option Grants.  Please modify the Quicken Program to hand Restricted Stock Unit Grants as well.

Tom Young

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled RSU Support.


What, exactly, do you wish to see?

An RSU is just another versions of a non-qualified stock option, typically requiring no out of pocket cost on your part and gets "exercised" when it vests.  The only thing Quicken doesn't allow here is a $0 exercise price but $.000001 is allowed and probably won't affect anything, really.

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: Quicken Please Update Quicken Product to Handle Restricted Stock Units....Please ....

wspotmeyer

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled RSU Support.


Tom, the problem is that RSUs are considered income at the time of vesting.  If I exercise an option there are no tax consequences if I purchase the stock; with an RSU grant, the vesting shares are considered income from the company and I have to pay income taxes on them at the time of vest.

In my case, this year I got dozens of shares that I can only track by using an "Add Shares" transaction. Unfortunately, "Add Shares" does not allow me to categorize the transaction as income for tax planning purposes. The tax planner does not know to include that income in my tax forecast for the year and it's throwing all the numbers off.

A simple thing to do in the short term would be to add a Category field to the "Add Shares" transaction. I can then manually add MiscExp items for the various taxes I have to pay.

A better long-term solution would be to have a wizard much like the stock option wizard that would include future vesting transactions and tax items.

And, of course, could you please make it available on Mac as well? ;-)

Hope that helps.

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: RSU Support.

Ray Cosner

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled RSU Support.


In my experience, RSUs produce taxable income when they are exercised (sold).  Vesting (so that they are eligible to be sold by you) is not a taxable event.  

You can enter option grants in an investment account, the transaction type in the drop-down list is "Grant Employee Stock Option".  This will lead you to identify the schedule for vesting of that grant of options, and also the expiration date.  When you exercise (liquidate) options, the transaction type is "Exercise Employee Stock Option".  I suggest setting up a separate investment account to hold your options.  In this account, go to "Account Details" then the "Tax Schedule" button and select that transfers out of that account are taxable income (in my case, ordinary salaried income).

Please consult the issuer of your RSUs or your professional financial advisor, to ensure that my experience also applies in your situation.

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: RSU Support.

jr7107

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled RSU Support.


Not tax advice, but an example of how to present based on description. If it is income, create an "Income" transaction for the gross number. Purchase the RSUs at "vesting" date. If you paid cash for taxes, complete a separate "Misc Exp" transaction for Fed/State/SocSec/Med. If you netted shares, sell shares at vesting price (for no gain), and then pay taxes with "Misc Exp" transaction. 

Also not tax advice, but the RSUs I have experience with cost basis will be price as of vesting date, but also the gross is taxable immediately as "Income". There are some other special provisions, but deep in the weeds of tax. Check with your tax advisor as to the method of cost basis and then we can figure out the best way to present in Quicken.

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: Quicken Please Update Quicken Product to Handle Restricted Stock Units....Please ....

jr7107

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled RSU Support.


I wrote "purchase the RSUs", but meant purchase the underlying security as a clarification.

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: RSU Support.

Ray Cosner

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled RSU Support.


For the RSUs I have, the cost basis is the stock price at the grant date, not the vesting date.  Also, taxes are due at the time of the grant for income based on the value of the options at the grant date.  Often, the issuer pays these taxes directly to the IRS in your name (just like payroll withholding), by reducing the size of the grant as necessary to pay the taxes.  

When the options are exercised, tax is due on the increase in value since the grant date. I have not had to deal with a drop in value at the exercise date, but I assume it would be reported on your taxes as a loss (short term?  long term?).  I also have not had to deal with options that expire without being exercised.

This illustrates why it is vital for you to get tax advice from a professional who knows the details of you exact situation with your RSUs. 

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: RSU Support.

jr7107

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled RSU Support.


Exactly right, ask your tax people first. Then figure out how to present in Q.

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: RSU Support.

Tom Young

"If I exercise an option there are no tax consequences if I purchase the stock"

Only if the option is an ISO.  If it's a NQSO you must recognize compensation based on the "spread" between the exercise cost and the market value of the stock acquired.  With an RSU the "spread" is between $0, (what you paid to exercise), and the market value of the stock acquired.

"In my case, this year I got dozens of shares that I can only track by using an "Add Shares" transaction."

If we are still talking about RSU's that's not the case.  The "exercise stock option" action adds the shares an it adds them at the correct basis.  What doesn't happen in Quicken is the offsetting entry to a "compensation" Category.  If you're stating this in the context of the "tax planner" then I'll admit I know nothing about that, but having Quicken recognize a future vesting date of a nonstatutory option, (RSU/NQSO) is a good idea, but you'd have to provide the "guess" as to the future FMV of the stock.

Tom Young

"In my experience, RSUs produce taxable income when they are exercised
(sold).  Vesting (so that they are eligible to be sold by you) is not a
taxable event."

That's not correct.  It's the vesting itself that creates compensation income.  If you handed your company cash out of your pocket for the taxes created by the vesting, so that no shares had to be "sold for taxes", you'd end up with ALL the shares in the grant and the compensation would still be there on your W-2.

The sale of the shares acquired via the RSA is also a taxable event, creating capital gain or loss, short term or long term depending on your holding period.  And no, that's not "double taxation" because your basis in the shares includes the compensation.  That's why a "same day" sale typically creates a small capital loss due to selling commissions and fees.

joe kane

OK Quicken team, I'll kick the tires one more time.  Could you at least provide some feedback on the feature either way?

The TurboTax Wizard has handled RSUs (and the proper handling of the transactions) for a very long time (from when you were from the same company), so clearly its an understood feature.   Adding the RSU account support, with RSU transactions (just like you have for ESPPs) just seems like a no brainer.

Unknown

I use the same workaround. The problem is (and this is quite significant) Quicken doesn't characterize RSU vesting as income. Run any income report and it will be understated by the amount of all RSU vesting that occurred in the reported period.

joe kane

Rod,

So to get it counted as income, I basically add the rsu grant amount as a mini paycheck at rsu grant, with a sub category of income that a created for rsu. i use that to also record the surrendered for taxes.


its a long painful approach, that is prone to error, but it does work.

Unknown

Interesting. So how do you record the addition of shares to your brokerage account? The approach I have used is to record an addition of vested shares (with a cost of $0) to my brokerage account on the beating date. This keeps my stock holding accurate but doesn’t reflect the income. Your approach records the income but not the equity build up? I don’t see a way of doing both without overstating net worth (recording income as your method accomplishes and recording receipt of best shares in an equity/brokerage account as my method acxomplishes). This is truly a shortcoming of Quicken.

joe kane

Rod,

I have a separate 'fake' brokerage holder account in quicken for the RSUs (not connected to an institution, nor do I download transactions etc).  I enter the mini paycheck transaction (with split categories for the the rsu income, taxes withheld etc) on the date that the RSUs vest.  That creates a cash balance in the fake holder account.   I then enter a buy transaction for the number of RSU shares, at the grant price, using 'cash from this account'. That gets you to zero balance in brokerage account, and the right number of available shares, and the regular income.  When I sell, I enter the Sell transaction in the holder account. Now the holder account has cash balance.   

When I sell from the actual brokerage, I'll eventually transfer the proceeds out to one of my cash accounts.  Then I just do a transfer from the holder account to the cash account, bringing it back to zero.

Like I said, its a big PITA and easy to make a mistake.  75 steps to make this happen, versus (using the ESPP account example that Quicken does support)  'buy espp shares', 'sell espp shares'.