Schedule F

Does H&B still put Schedule F under personal, rather than business, where it belongs?
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  • edited January 6
    If you are trying to use Quicken Home and Business for farming, forget it. The manufacture of Quicken and Quickbooks does not realize that today's Schedule F may be an S Corporation, LLC, or Limited Liability Partnership.  Quicken software only recognizes Schedule F Sales as personal income when it should be seen as "business income." Although it is great for personal finances, it is really lacking in the business arena. 
  • Greg_the_GeekGreg_the_Geek SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6

    If you are trying to use Quicken Home and Business for farming, forget it. The manufacture of Quicken and Quickbooks does not realize that today's Schedule F may be an S Corporation, LLC, or Limited Liability Partnership.  Quicken software only recognizes Schedule F Sales as personal income when it should be seen as "business income." Although it is great for personal finances, it is really lacking in the business arena. 

    First, Intuit hasn't owned Quicken for more than 2 years.

    Second, where is it stated that Quicken supports an S Corporation, LLC, or Limited Liability Partnership? It's intended to be used by a Sole Proprietorship.
    Quicken 2017 H&B - Windows 10
  • HayFarmerHayFarmer Member
    edited January 11
    Yes, I knew Intuit doesn't own Quicken. (And what Quickbooks has to do with this question, I don't know.)

    My farm, and many others, ARE sole proprietorships. That doesn't, however, make it personal.
  • Greg_the_GeekGreg_the_Geek SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6
    I was replying to @Joe Hartoebben. I'll ask a Moderator to change your post to an Idea so that the developers will review it and posters can vote on it.
    Quicken 2017 H&B - Windows 10
  • Greg_the_GeekGreg_the_Geek SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11
    OP wants Schedule F categories to be in the Business Group and not Personal.
    Quicken 2017 H&B - Windows 10
  • mshigginsmshiggins SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6

    If you are trying to use Quicken Home and Business for farming, forget it. The manufacture of Quicken and Quickbooks does not realize that today's Schedule F may be an S Corporation, LLC, or Limited Liability Partnership.  Quicken software only recognizes Schedule F Sales as personal income when it should be seen as "business income." Although it is great for personal finances, it is really lacking in the business arena. 

    From C. D. Bales:

    "The manufacture of Quicken and Quickbooks does not realize that today's Schedule F may be an S Corporation, LLC, or Limited Liability Partnership".


    Nonsense.


    You have no clue what "[t]he manufacture [sic] of Quicken ....", realizes.


    Quicken, Inc. almost certainly does "realize that today's Schedule F may be an S Corporation, LLC, or Limited Liability Partnership".


    What your false claim ignores is that Quicken, Inc. is in business to make money; they're not philanthropists.


    When you can demonstrate that there are enough current, and potential, Schedule F Quicken users to make it financially worthwhile for Quicken, Inc. to spend the money to allow Schedule F transactions to be treated as "Business" transactions, just as Schedule C transactions are now; I'll wager you'll find that Quicken, Inc. will have already determined the same thing, and made that capability available to Quicken users.
    Quicken user since Q1999. Currently using QW2017.
    Questions? Check out the  Quicken Windows FAQ list
  • HayFarmerHayFarmer Member
    edited January 6

    If you are trying to use Quicken Home and Business for farming, forget it. The manufacture of Quicken and Quickbooks does not realize that today's Schedule F may be an S Corporation, LLC, or Limited Liability Partnership.  Quicken software only recognizes Schedule F Sales as personal income when it should be seen as "business income." Although it is great for personal finances, it is really lacking in the business arena. 

    What you say is, undoubtedly, true. What would I have to do to demonstrate that there are enough farms? A quick internet search will show many farms using it and college agricultural departments directing them to it. The USDA may have data available about small farms, but I don't know where to find it. Corporate farms would, more likely, be using Quickbooks or farm management software. I would suggest putting the feature in it and then taking out ads in Successful Farming or American Small Farm mag, etc. Small farms usually don't need farm management (which farm specific software provides), just the financial thing Quicken can. And at a MUCH smaller cost.
  • edited January 6
    HayFarmer said:

    Yes, I knew Intuit doesn't own Quicken. (And what Quickbooks has to do with this question, I don't know.)

    My farm, and many others, ARE sole proprietorships. That doesn't, however, make it personal.

    I agree.  Farms are small and large businesses. Never did figure out why Quicken thinks Schedule F is personal income.  Schedule F is very similar to Schedule C. Schedule F deals with the cost, income, and expenses directly related to an agriculture business.  I mean farmers corporations have been around, since the 1990's.  Some farms own and operate separate business entities. We do.
  • edited January 6

    I was replying to @Joe Hartoebben. I'll ask a Moderator to change your post to an Idea so that the developers will review it and posters can vote on it.

    I do not think it is a matter on voting on it, but that is okay. It is a matter of complying with IRS Tax  Codes. The change would be beneficial to Quicken Home and Business sales.
  • markus1957markus1957 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7
    HayFarmer said:

    Yes, I knew Intuit doesn't own Quicken. (And what Quickbooks has to do with this question, I don't know.)

    My farm, and many others, ARE sole proprietorships. That doesn't, however, make it personal.

    Could either of you explain in detail where Schedule F falls short in calculating net farming income as it applies to farming operations that pass thru all income to partners or shareholders and do not file a corporate tax return for the farming operation?  

    I know the new pass-through deduction is not incorporated (but might be added manually) and it's probably tedious to set up a Category List to include the forms associated with income and expense tax lines.  But basically Quicken is forwarding net income to the personal side of the ledger as would be required for all operations that do not pay tax as a farming entity like a C-corp.

    I see this topic come up from time to time but no one has discussed the shortcomings in any detail.

    Adding- Oklahoma State has developed a rather extensive manual for tracking ranching and farming operations using Quicken.  They have created a custom set of Schedule F Categories/tax lines for download and might be a resource for those with interest in using Quicken for farming operations accounting.

    http://www.agecon.okstate.edu/quicken/index.asp
  • markus1957markus1957 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7

    OP wants Schedule F categories to be in the Business Group and not Personal.

    As I interpret this and other posts like it, farmers would like the functionality provided in the Business tab for Schedule C and Schedule E to also be developed for Schedule F.  All of these schedules eventually report as personal income on the 1040.  With a few exceptions resulting from the new tax law, Tax Planner and the existing tax lines available for category assignments are appropriate for individual transactions.

    As it stands now, the H&B version provides zero benefit for tracking farming operations accounting and farmers should purchase the Deluxe or Premier versions for that purpose. In fact H&B is a hinderance if it is used because appropriate tax lines cannot be applied to transactions within the Business module. The link above shows the complicated route (155 page manual) that the OSU Ag Dept. took to customize Quicken for farming operations.  It might help if Quicken would contact OSU to determine if a farming module similar to those available for Schedules C and E could be cost effectively developed or adapted for Schedule F.
  • markus1957markus1957 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7
    HayFarmer said:

    Yes, I knew Intuit doesn't own Quicken. (And what Quickbooks has to do with this question, I don't know.)

    My farm, and many others, ARE sole proprietorships. That doesn't, however, make it personal.

    Adding-  IMO, the following text is the best piece of advice in the OSU manual-

    " Note: Quicken includes the Farm Categories as Personal Income and Personal Expenses as Business Expenses are presumed to be linked to Schedule C. Don’t let this stress you as the farm categories are appropriately linked with Schedule F and will show up in Tax Schedule reports correctly."
     
  • HayFarmerHayFarmer Member
    edited January 7
    HayFarmer said:

    Yes, I knew Intuit doesn't own Quicken. (And what Quickbooks has to do with this question, I don't know.)

    My farm, and many others, ARE sole proprietorships. That doesn't, however, make it personal.

    While the tax schedule reports do work properly, the business reports don't. Business presumed to be Schedule C forgets that farms are business, also.
  • mshigginsmshiggins SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7
    HayFarmer said:

    Yes, I knew Intuit doesn't own Quicken. (And what Quickbooks has to do with this question, I don't know.)

    My farm, and many others, ARE sole proprietorships. That doesn't, however, make it personal.

    From C. D. Bales:

    "While the tax schedule reports do work properly, the business reports don't. Business presumed to be Schedule C forgets that farms are business, also".


    I was pretty sure that was the alleged problem, but I wanted someone to confirm, before responding.


    The Quicken "Business" editions do not "forget" anything. Their reports are working correctly ... exactly as they were designed to work.


    They have always ONLY intended to treat Schedule C users as "business users". It's not a mistake: it is designed that way. As noted in another current discussion on this subject, there is no reason to believe that Intuit (where the Business edition of Quicken was created) or Quicken, Inc., do not understand what Schedule F "business" is.


    [While it is not pertinent to the claim about Quicken Business reports; my understanding is that Schedule F income is ultimately reported as personal income, just as Schedule C, and Schedule E income are reported. If so, that makes the complaints about Quicken's treatment of Schedule F users doubly wrong. And FYI: I have personally used Quicken Deluxe to deal with a very small (one property) Schedule E business (never missed the Quicken "Business" features); and I know of another Quicken user who used Quicken Deluxe to deal with a large and complex Schedule E business with multiple properties. The "business" features of Quicken are over-rated, as well as having unwarranted expectations made of them.]


    In any event: Intuit was, and Quicken, Inc. is, entitled to create a product that addresses the needs of the potential users they expect to serve ... just like every other product ever created. They have no obligation to serve every person who is looking for a cheap software product to use for their business.


    If there are not enough Schedule F users (or Schedule E users, for that matter) to justify the extra cost of having Quicken treat them as Quicken "business users"; that is not only the product manufacturer's choice, it is the right choice.


    No non-Schedule F users should have to pay to allow Schedule F users to gain an overrated ability. It's clear you, and others, are looking to get something for nothing (as an earlier poster here made clear, Quicken comes "at a MUCH smaller cost", than software designed for specifically for those in the farm business). You don't get to dump the cost of serving your personal interests on other users who do not have your interests and don't need the features you want.


    [Perhaps Quicken, Inc. can devise a way to address some non-Schedule C "business" user's wishes without requiring the non-Schedule C business users to have to pay for the added functionality. That is the only way it should be considered.]


    For those who may not understand the underlying beef, I think I can explain, at least, some of it. The "Business" version of Quicken was only intended to serve Schedule C users.


    To that end, there were some capabilities added to Quicken to create the "Business edition" that could only use Quicken "business transactions". A Quicken "business transaction" must meet one of two requirements: the transaction must have a Schedule C Tax Line Item assigned; or the transaction must have NO Tax Line Item assigned and have a Business Tag assigned.


    An example of a Quicken Business feature that requires "business transactions" is the reports found at Reports > Business. Those reports include (among others); "Balance Sheet", "Profit and Loss Statement" and "Cash Flow". While not all Quicken "Business" reports have non-Business report equivalents; the aforementioned reports (and a couple of others) do have non-Business report equivalents.


    The "restrictions" claimed are not nearly as "restrictive" as the invective in this Community pretends; and the complaints are unwarranted.


    There is an alternative, though an alternative not likely to please the complainants.


    Any Schedule F user willing to forgo the ability to have Quicken create any tax report for qualified Schedule F transactions, can utilize pretty much all the "business" features Quicken has to offer.


    As noted earlier: Quicken will treat any transaction that has a "Business Tag" assigned, but NO Tax Line Item assigned, as a "business transaction". Those transactions should provide access to Quicken Business Reports (and, I believe most other "business" features).


    If it's not clear: the "alternative" would entail not assigning Schedule F Tax Line Items to categories (or transactions).
    Quicken user since Q1999. Currently using QW2017.
    Questions? Check out the  Quicken Windows FAQ list
  • mshigginsmshiggins SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7
    HayFarmer said:

    Yes, I knew Intuit doesn't own Quicken. (And what Quickbooks has to do with this question, I don't know.)

    My farm, and many others, ARE sole proprietorships. That doesn't, however, make it personal.

    From C. D. Bales:

    "Never did figure out why Quicken thinks Schedule F is personal income".


    Quicken does not "think Schedule F is personal income [sic]" - any more than Quicken thinks Schedule E is personal income.


    If you assign the appropriate Tax Line Item to your transactions, Quicken will displays those transactions correctly in the Tax Schedule and Tax Summary reports.


    And Quicken provides non-business reports that are often the equivalent (and when not; very nearly the equivalent) to the business reports. The Net Worth report replicates (or nearly replicates) the Balance Sheet report. The Income and Expense by Category report replicates (or nearly replicates) the Profit and Loss report.


    Users of the Quicken "Business" version are almost certainly a very small part of all Quicken users; users who have a Schedule E business (who are also not treated as "business users") or Schedule F business are an even smaller segment of Quicken users than those who have a Schedule C business.


    You are pretending that Quicken, Inc. (and Intuit during the time Quicken was owned by Intuit) is either ignorant or uncaring, simply because you are not getting what you want. You could not be further from the truth. Quicken is still in business (while Microsoft Money is not) because Quicken cares about ALL its users ... in proportion to the revenue they produce - as they must.


    It would cost Quicken, Inc. to treat Schedule E and Schedule F users as "business users" in the same way that Schedule C users currently are: you can bet that Quicken Inc's. decision not to do so is strictly a business decision.


    There are many Quicken Schedule C business users who would not like to be forced to pay more for Quicken so non-Schedule C business users could be treated as "business users".


    You claim to be in "business": Quicken, Inc, is also in business. You can not avoid reality by expecting someone else's business to ignore economic reality just to satisfy your personal desires.


    If you can not find any other product that offers you what you want for a price you are willing to pay, that is a confirmation that what you want is not economically feasible: your problem has nothing to do with any Quicken/Intuit lack of knowledge or concern for their current or potential customers.
    Quicken user since Q1999. Currently using QW2017.
    Questions? Check out the  Quicken Windows FAQ list
  • HayFarmerHayFarmer Member
    edited January 8
    HayFarmer said:

    Yes, I knew Intuit doesn't own Quicken. (And what Quickbooks has to do with this question, I don't know.)

    My farm, and many others, ARE sole proprietorships. That doesn't, however, make it personal.

    I think it is time to close this discussion before it gets any nastier.
  • Greg_the_GeekGreg_the_Geek SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8
    HayFarmer said:

    Yes, I knew Intuit doesn't own Quicken. (And what Quickbooks has to do with this question, I don't know.)

    My farm, and many others, ARE sole proprietorships. That doesn't, however, make it personal.

    I had this thread changed to an Idea so that it would be seen by Quicken programmers and possibly implemented. If it's closed, it can no longer be voted for. Everyone just needs to take a chill pill.
    Quicken 2017 H&B - Windows 10
  • markus1957markus1957 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8
    HayFarmer said:

    Yes, I knew Intuit doesn't own Quicken. (And what Quickbooks has to do with this question, I don't know.)

    My farm, and many others, ARE sole proprietorships. That doesn't, however, make it personal.

    Thinking out loud... and hoping for a response from Quicken, while bracing for one from that cranky old geezer Bales... :-), 

    Why couldn't tax lines from Schedules E & F be universally added to the code that looks for Schedule C designation?  I can't think of an example where that would not work; they are all the same basic types of income/expenses that could easily translate to the Business module features.  

    In any case, after looking through the OSU manual, they have done the hard work to customize Quicken for farming. The business module is really just window dressing that saves a user from having to create custom categories and reports.
  • mshigginsmshiggins SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9
    HayFarmer said:

    Yes, I knew Intuit doesn't own Quicken. (And what Quickbooks has to do with this question, I don't know.)

    My farm, and many others, ARE sole proprietorships. That doesn't, however, make it personal.

    From cranky old geezer C. D. Bales:


    "Why couldn't tax lines from Schedules E & F be universally added to the code that looks for Schedule C designation?"


    My personal choice would be that the user could specify the "Business Type" (Schedule C, Schedule E, or Schedule F) for each file - but only have one "Business Type" per file. I don't really know the degree of difficulty, but retaining the limit of one business type per file would seem simpler. [Was that what you meant?]


    I do not object to the idea of having Quicken allow more than one "business type": I object to the bogus statements offered in support of it, and the notion that somehow non-schedule C business users are entitled to the same treatment as schedule C users.


    I think it was a good idea to change this discussion to an IDEA; users who want more capabilities for Schedule E or Schedule F business should think of their desire as a request to Quicken, Inc. To the extent there are enough of those users to warrant the cost of the change, I don't see why Quicken, Inc. would have any objections. Naturally, treatment of that request would have to fit in the queue with all other requests and bug fixes.
    Quicken user since Q1999. Currently using QW2017.
    Questions? Check out the  Quicken Windows FAQ list
  • smayer97smayer97 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8
    HayFarmer said:

    Yes, I knew Intuit doesn't own Quicken. (And what Quickbooks has to do with this question, I don't know.)

    My farm, and many others, ARE sole proprietorships. That doesn't, however, make it personal.

     If it's closed, it can no longer be voted for. 
    You can STILL VOTE on a thread that is closed (≠ archived).  You just cannot add any more comments, which is part of the point of an IDEA thread. ;-)

    (but if it gets out of hand, closing it for a cooling off time might help)

    (If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.)

    If you find this reply helpful, please be sure to click "Like", so others will know, thanks.

    (Canadian  user since '92, STILL using QM2007)

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