New issue with linked online billers and reminders

BobBob Member ✭✭
edited November 23 in Paying Bills (Windows)
@Sherlock perhaps you can help. You solved my last on of this ilk for me.

Here's what happened. All Bill Reminders and Linked Billers working smoothly. Then credit card fraud, so they cancelled my card and issued a new one. I went to the account, deactivated online services, reactivated and it found the new account number as expected. Somewhere there it asked if I wanted to link and I did want to have all my history there so chose yes and again, all good as expected.

I deleted the Online Biller and then readded as if new and it found the new account. I created a new reminder and used the new transfer category for the category tag. And the new account number for the credit card. All good again. so far.

Updated Billers and a new bill came in to the account. Perfect. I entered it and it debited the checking account and credited the credit card as expected BUT..

It DID NOT mark the Reminder as paid (just deleted it) and it DID NOT show the Online Biller as paid as all others do, but rather back to awaiting new bill.

I have to think somehow it came about because of linking the two credit card numbers, but maybe not. I have tried everything I can think of to get this right and no luck. Can you (or anyone, of course) help?

Thanks.

~Bob

Answers

  • BobBob Member ✭✭
    Correction: It DID show the Bill Reminder as paid. I failed to look at Next Month. So only the Online Biller not showing as paid is the issue.
  • SherlockSherlock SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    If the reminder is set to use online bill pay, I suggest you confirm whether the payment has been scheduled or issued by the financial institution using the Online Center (select Tools > Online Center) and/or the bill payment web site.
    Quicken user since 1997
    Premier on Windows 10
  • BobBob Member ✭✭
    Sorry, the online bill pay i refer to is from my checking account to the credit card scheduled through my bank. I do not use Quicken BillPay.

    the checking account register shows it as scheduled. Bill Reminders shows it as paid. But Online Billers does not show it as paid and with a date as all other Online Billers do when entered.

    Make any sense? Need images?
  • SherlockSherlock SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24
    Bob said:
    Sorry, the online bill pay i refer to is from my checking account to the credit card scheduled through my bank. I do not use Quicken BillPay.
    Just wanted to confirm you set the reminder up appropriately and the actual payment is not missed. 
    the checking account register shows it as scheduled. Bill Reminders shows it as paid. But Online Billers does not show it as paid and with a date as all other Online Billers do when entered.
    Paid confirms the reminder was entered successfully.
    Make any sense? Need images?
    Screen captures wouldn't hurt.
    Quicken user since 1997
    Premier on Windows 10
  • BobBob Member ✭✭
    edited November 24
    Just to refresh, this worked until credit card fraud and they changed the account number. I combined accounts in Quicken. They and I use the new number, new transfer category. But I have to feel that something there caused the glitch.

    If I could even "close" this account in Quicken then start with a fresh one for the same account, I would and I'll bet that would fix it though could create more issues. Hoping for an easy fix. Last time you got me working by explaining I was using the wrong category in the bill reminder. I am not now. Something else wrong.

    Here's the result of the issue:
    1.JPG 18.5K
    2.JPG 6.9K
    3.JPG 66.9K
    4.JPG 50.7K
  • SherlockSherlock SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you haven't already, I suggest you reset the Quicken Cloud data set associated with the data file.  If you're not using the Quicken Cloud, I suggest using another data file to delete the original file's data set. 

    To reset the data set: 
    1. Select Edit > Preferences...
    2. Select Quicken ID, Mobile & Alerts
    3. Select Reset your cloud data
    To delete the data set, you may want to review: https://www.quicken.com/support/how-edit-or-delete-your-cloud-datasets-quicken-windows
    Quicken user since 1997
    Premier on Windows 10
  • BobBob Member ✭✭
    Thanks, but I do not use cloud data. And I believe this would have me staring over with getting all accounts that I use with online billers over again as I had to after the server crash a few months ago.

    I don't think that is the issue. I think that the category and the biller are confused. Had I known, I would have closed the first account with fraud and opened a new account, reminder, category, biller. If I could figure out how to do that now, I would. Or if it is something I am just not seeing I would try it.

    @Sarah , might you have other ideas? This is not a mission critical as the only thing "broken" is the updating of the online biller, but it would be nice to have this working again as it has broken in so many different ways often.
  • SherlockSherlock SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bob said:
    Thanks, but I do not use cloud data. And I believe this would have me staring over with getting all accounts that I use with online billers over again as I had to after the server crash a few months ago.
    Resetting or deleting the Quicken Cloud data set would not have you starting all over.  The data set will be automatically regenerated upon the next One Step Update.

    I don't think that is the issue. I think that the category and the biller are confused. Had I known, I would have closed the first account with fraud and opened a new account, reminder, category, biller. If I could figure out how to do that now, I would. Or if it is something I am just not seeing I would try it.
    My suspicion is the Quicken Cloud data set state for your Online Billers is no longer in sync with the data file.   Resetting or deleting the Quicken Cloud data set has resolved similar Online Biller issues for other users.
    @Sarah , might you have other ideas? This is not a mission critical as the only thing "broken" is the updating of the online biller, but it would be nice to have this working again as it has broken in so many different ways often.

    Quicken user since 1997
    Premier on Windows 10
  • BobBob Member ✭✭
    > @Sherlock said:
    > (Quote)
    > Resetting or deleting the Quicken Cloud data set would not have you starting all over.  The data set will be automatically regenerated upon the next One Step Update.
    >
    Thanks. I am next to sure that once (or twice) when support asked me to do this I lost all Online Billers. Perhaps nothing else, but had to recreate all of those and perhaps the Bill Reminders or links to. Accounts had no issues.

    If you are very confident this will not break things, please tell me exactly what you would suggest I try. And, if it does break, I assume (believe) that restoring from a previous backup will NOT restore these changes. Yes?

    > (Quote)
    > My suspicion is the Quicken Cloud data set state for your Online Billers is no longer in sync with the data file.   Resetting or deleting the Quicken Cloud data set has resolved similar Online Biller issues for other users.(Quote)

    OK. I think we partially agree. I "feel" like the Online Biller and the account for the credit card are out of sync because of the change in account number.

    Is it possible to deactivate the actual account and open it again as new with or without any historical data? This way I can do a new Reminder and new Online Biller which would likely sort this out.

    Thanks for all your help and comments.
  • SherlockSherlock SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bob said:
    > @Sherlock said:
    > (Quote)
    > Resetting or deleting the Quicken Cloud data set would not have you starting all over.  The data set will be automatically regenerated upon the next One Step Update.
    >
    Thanks. I am next to sure that once (or twice) when support asked me to do this I lost all Online Billers. Perhaps nothing else, but had to recreate all of those and perhaps the Bill Reminders or links to. Accounts had no issues.

    If you are very confident this will not break things, please tell me exactly what you would suggest I try. And, if it does break, I assume (believe) that restoring from a previous backup will NOT restore these changes. Yes?
    My understanding is as I stated.  We should be able to delete the Quicken Cloud data set without losing the Online Billers.  If we save a backup, remove Online Billers, and restore the backup, the removed Online Billers should reappear.  It is my understanding an Update from Biller or One Step Update should coerce the sync of Online Billers to Quicken Cloud data set.  In other words, the data file is supposed to be the source of truth.

    If you have issued online payments from within Quicken, you may have issues if you restore a backup that was saved prior to the online payments.

    If you want to play it safe, you may be able to use File > File Operations > Copy... to produce a fresh data file.  This new file should coerce a new Quicken Cloud data set when you Update from Biller or One Step Update.

    > (Quote)
    > My suspicion is the Quicken Cloud data set state for your Online Billers is no longer in sync with the data file.   Resetting or deleting the Quicken Cloud data set has resolved similar Online Biller issues for other users.(Quote)

    OK. I think we partially agree. I "feel" like the Online Biller and the account for the credit card are out of sync because of the change in account number.

    Is it possible to deactivate the actual account and open it again as new with or without any historical data? This way I can do a new Reminder and new Online Biller which would likely sort this out.
    An Online Biller is bound to a web site account to obtain a bill and is independent of the account registers in Quicken.  We should be able to remove an Online Biller and add the Online Biller again.  We should be able to delete a reminder and create the reminder again.  Note: If we change the credentials of the web site account, we update the Online Biller and Online Services separately.
    Thanks for all your help and comments.

    Quicken user since 1997
    Premier on Windows 10
  • BobBob Member ✭✭
    > @Sherlock said:
    > (Quote)
    > My understanding is as I stated.  We should be able to delete the Quicken Cloud data set without losing the Online Billers.  If we save a backup, remove Online Billers, and restore the backup, the removed Online Billers should reappear.  It is my understanding an Update from Biller or One Step Update should coerce the sync of Online Billers to Quicken Cloud data set.  In other words, the data file is supposed to be the source of truth.
    >
    Well, I have updated from billers and one step many times since the issue started.

    > If you have issued online payments from within Quicken, you may have issues if you restore a backup that was saved prior to the online payments.
    >
    Agreed. This would not be an issue here.

    > If you want to play it safe, you may be able to use File > File Operations > Copy... to produce a fresh data file.  This new file should coerce a new Quicken Cloud data set when you Update from Biller or One Step Update.
    >
    Unsure what this does and what risk it has. Can you detail a iittle more?

    > (Quote)
    > An Online Biller is bound to a web site account to obtain a bill and is independent of the account registers in Quicken.  We should be able to remove an Online Biller and add the Online Biller again.  We should be able to delete a reminder and create the reminder again.  Note: If we change the credentials of the web site account, we update the Online Biller and Online Services separately.(Quote)

    And I have done both. Especially right after creating the new linked credit card account with new acct number. The new Online Biller is definitely for the new account. And it appears the new reminder is also for the new account. Both had different names previously. Deleting either or both did not change how the Online Biller was being shown after entering the payment. For me to try again would have to be in a month when there is new online biller info to scrape. But I will guarantee that will not fix the issue.
  • SherlockSherlock SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25
    Bob said:
    > @Sherlock said:
    > (Quote)
    > My understanding is as I stated.  We should be able to delete the Quicken Cloud data set without losing the Online Billers.  If we save a backup, remove Online Billers, and restore the backup, the removed Online Billers should reappear.  It is my understanding an Update from Biller or One Step Update should coerce the sync of Online Billers to Quicken Cloud data set.  In other words, the data file is supposed to be the source of truth.
    >
    Well, I have updated from billers and one step many times since the issue started.
    Which is why I suggest the reset or delete of the Quicken Cloud data set.
    > If you have issued online payments from within Quicken, you may have issues if you restore a backup that was saved prior to the online payments.
    >
    Agreed. This would not be an issue here.

    > If you want to play it safe, you may be able to use File > File Operations > Copy... to produce a fresh data file.  This new file should coerce a new Quicken Cloud data set when you Update from Biller or One Step Update.
    >
    Unsure what this does and what risk it has. Can you detail a iittle more?

    If you haven't already, you may want to review: https://www.quicken.com/support/how-do-i-copy-quicken-data-file
    > (Quote)
    > An Online Biller is bound to a web site account to obtain a bill and is independent of the account registers in Quicken.  We should be able to remove an Online Biller and add the Online Biller again.  We should be able to delete a reminder and create the reminder again.  Note: If we change the credentials of the web site account, we update the Online Biller and Online Services separately.(Quote)

    And I have done both. Especially right after creating the new linked credit card account with new acct number. The new Online Biller is definitely for the new account. And it appears the new reminder is also for the new account. Both had different names previously. Deleting either or both did not change how the Online Biller was being shown after entering the payment. For me to try again would have to be in a month when there is new online biller info to scrape. But I will guarantee that will not fix the issue.
    I was not suggesting you recreate the Online Biller or the reminder.  I was explaining why I think that, although you may deactivate the actual account and open it again as new with or without any historical data and do a new Reminder and new Online Biller, it will not impact the issue.

    My suggestion is still that you delete the Quicken Cloud data set associated with the data file: https://www.quicken.com/support/how-edit-or-delete-your-cloud-datasets-quicken-windows
    Quicken user since 1997
    Premier on Windows 10
  • BobBob Member ✭✭
    OK. i shall poke around and see. Thanks.

    Surprised that closing the account, downloading the account fresh (if I can do that!) and then a new reminder and new online biller would not solve this.
  • SherlockSherlock SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bob said:
    OK. i shall poke around and see. Thanks.

    Surprised that closing the account, downloading the account fresh (if I can do that!) and then a new reminder and new online biller would not solve this.
    If you want to see if closing the account, downloading the account fresh and then a new reminder and new online biller will solve this, go for it.  Just remember to save a backup (press Ctrl + B).
    Quicken user since 1997
    Premier on Windows 10
  • BobBob Member ✭✭
    OK, went to check the cloud data set and this is all I see Sherlock. SO I assume this cannot be the issue, yes?

    And can I close the account and download it again if it has been closed? I was unsure if that was possible. If it is, I would unlink the biller, remove biller, remove reminder, close account, redownload.

    But you do not think this is a good idea it seems.
  • SherlockSherlock SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bob said:
    OK, went to check the cloud data set and this is all I see Sherlock. SO I assume this cannot be the issue, yes?
    No. That simply indicates you have not syncing accounts to the Quicken Cloud data set associated with the data file.  I suggested you use another data file to access the original data file's data set and review:  https://www.quicken.com/support/how-edit-or-delete-your-cloud-datasets-quicken-windows

    And can I close the account and download it again if it has been closed? I was unsure if that was possible. If it is, I would unlink the biller, remove biller, remove reminder, close account, redownload.

    But you do not think this is a good idea it seems.
    We cannot enable Online Services for closed account register but we can create a new register and move the transactions, reset any memorized payees and reminders, and delete the original register.  This is an approach I would suggest when someone has closed the account without realizing the limitation and does not have access to a recent backup or if a register had a corruption that was not addressable by a Copy and Validate. Again, it's more work and unlikely to resolve the issue.  
    Quicken user since 1997
    Premier on Windows 10
  • BobBob Member ✭✭
    > @Sherlock said:
    > (Quote)
    > No. That simply indicates you have not syncing accounts to the Quicken Cloud data set associated with the data file.  I suggested you use another data file to access the original data file's data set and review:  https://www.quicken.com/support/how-edit-or-delete-your-cloud-datasets-quicken-windows
    >

    You have me baffled. There is NOTHING there!! As my image shows. I read the article. If there was a data set it would be at the bottom of that window.

    I do not have that as I show above Sherlock.
  • BobBob Member ✭✭
    Well, I really like things to work as designed, especially when a glitch is an exception to how the other accounts are working. Which is why I reached out here. But maybe its not worth it. A lot of energy for something that is working 60% and is not a showstopper. But its like that first scratch on a new car. You always know its there.

    Thanks for the help Sherlock.
  • SherlockSherlock SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27
    Bob said:
    > @Sherlock said:
    > (Quote)
    > No. That simply indicates you have not syncing accounts to the Quicken Cloud data set associated with the data file.  I suggested you use another data file to access the original data file's data set and review:  https://www.quicken.com/support/how-edit-or-delete-your-cloud-datasets-quicken-windows
    >

    You have me baffled. There is NOTHING there!! As my image shows. I read the article. If there was a data set it would be at the bottom of that window.

    I do not have that as I show above Sherlock.
    The image shows that you have one cloud account associated with the data file that has not been sync'd.  This does not mean that the cloud account doesn't exist or that the associated data set is empty as it is also used for managing the Online Billers associated with the data file.

    For the third time...To delete the cloud account, you need to use another data file.



    Create a temporary test data file: select File > New Quicken File..., OK, specify a file (in this example, Test), select OK, choose Don't use mobile and web, select Next, Add Account, Cancel

    Note: There are now two cloud accounts associated with the Quicken ID:



    Select Cloud accounts associated with the Quicken ID (2)



    Select the original cloud account, Delete, enter yes, select Delete, Close, and OK

    Switch back to the original data file: select File and the original data file.

    Perform a One Step Update: press Ctrl + 1

    Check the Bills view on the BILLS & INCOME tab


    Quicken user since 1997
    Premier on Windows 10
  • SherlockSherlock SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bob said:
    Well, I really like things to work as designed, especially when a glitch is an exception to how the other accounts are working. Which is why I reached out here. But maybe its not worth it. A lot of energy for something that is working 60% and is not a showstopper. But its like that first scratch on a new car. You always know its there.

    Thanks for the help Sherlock.
    We all would like things to work the way we think they should. 
    Quicken user since 1997
    Premier on Windows 10
  • BobBob Member ✭✭
    OK, after my last post I read a bit more and now understand (which was not clear from your postings) that you MUST delete a cloud from another file, not the one that is open. Your latest makes this clear as well, Sherlock.

    However, I doubt this has anything to do with it because:

    Four things should happen when you enter a payment from an Online Biller that scraped the account:

    1. The paying bank account shoudl be debited
    2. The credit account should be credited
    3. The Bill Reminder should show paid
    4. The Online Biller should show as paid and the date.

    Three of the four happen as expected. If they did not. I'd go with your idea. But they do..

    If you still think this could be / is the cause, I'll try it.

    You also say:

    "Check the Bills view on the BILLS & INCOME tab"

    There will not be a change there until the 23rd of next month. Bill already paid. Unless you think this process will change that and find the recently scheduled payment.


    Thanks.

    PS. The way they should and the way we think they should are two different things. I am clear on the difference.
  • SherlockSherlock SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bob said:
    OK, after my last post I read a bit more and now understand (which was not clear from your postings) that you MUST delete a cloud from another file, not the one that is open. Your latest makes this clear as well, Sherlock.

    However, I doubt this has anything to do with it because:

    Four things should happen when you enter a payment from an Online Biller that scraped the account:

    1. The paying bank account shoudl be debited
    2. The credit account should be credited
    3. The Bill Reminder should show paid
    4. The Online Biller should show as paid and the date.

    Three of the four happen as expected. If they did not. I'd go with your idea. But they do..

    If you still think this could be / is the cause, I'll try it.

    You also say:

    "Check the Bills view on the BILLS & INCOME tab"

    There will not be a change there until the 23rd of next month. Bill already paid. Unless you think this process will change that and find the recently scheduled payment.


    Thanks.

    PS. The way they should and the way we think they should are two different things. I am clear on the difference.
    Yes.  I still think you should delete the data set.  
    Quicken user since 1997
    Premier on Windows 10
  • BobBob Member ✭✭
    Can't pull the trigger. I am just like Ricky here:

    https://community.quicken.com/discussion/comment/20045124

    He says: I just want to confirm. When I get to the point of deleting the cloud data set associated with my original data file, I get the following message, which seems to say I will have to rebuild bill pay and all my bank account downloads.

    Do you see why I am concerned? Is the warning incorrect?
    0001.jpg
    137.1K

    And then Greg confirms my worst fear:

    I believe that deleting the Quicken cloud data set will delete all online biller accounts and they will need to be reestablished. I did this once myself and even restoring a backup did not reestablish the online biller accounts.

    And it seems you say you :"understand" or "believe". I'd like to hear from someone who has done what you suggest that has not losy anything like the list of online billers and reminders.

    Thanks.
  • SherlockSherlock SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bob said:
    Can't pull the trigger. I am just like Ricky here:

    https://community.quicken.com/discussion/comment/20045124

    He says: I just want to confirm. When I get to the point of deleting the cloud data set associated with my original data file, I get the following message, which seems to say I will have to rebuild bill pay and all my bank account downloads.

    Do you see why I am concerned? Is the warning incorrect?
    0001.jpg
    137.1K

    And then Greg confirms my worst fear:

    I believe that deleting the Quicken cloud data set will delete all online biller accounts and they will need to be reestablished. I did this once myself and even restoring a backup did not reestablish the online biller accounts.

    And it seems you say you :"understand" or "believe". I'd like to hear from someone who has done what you suggest that has not losy anything like the list of online billers and reminders.

    Thanks.
    But then there are those for whom removing the data set appears to work: https://community.quicken.com/discussion/7792155/delete-online-biller

    As you're unsure how to proceed, I suggest you contact Quicken Support: https://www.quicken.com/support#contact-support
    Quicken user since 1997
    Premier on Windows 10
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