Ability to hide or toggle off the new feature in sidebar, Separate Accounts (Q Mac)

Michael Erb

I do not like to see superflous items in my Account List in the sidebar. I object to the introduction of the new "feature," Separate Accounts, which is always there with no ability to hide it. Please give users the ability to remove that or hide it or toggle it on or off.

jasontrout

Just upgraded to Version 5.17.0 (Build 517.34821.100). I like the new "Hidden" accounts and "Separate" accounts features, but since "Hidden" accounts for me are accounts that are closed and I will not need quick access to ever, and "Separate" accounts are accounts that I only casually monitor for family members, it would be great to be able to customize the sidebar so that the display of these two groups can be turned on and off, rather than having them be permanent residents of the sidebar. Or maybe you CAN shut them off, and I'm just not seeing it? Thanks!

scubacat

I also just updated and am so incredibly disappointed with this new "feature." There's a reason I've hidden accounts--it's because they are no longer open, so why do I need to be constantly reminded by having them on my list of accounts? Please revert to the old version, and allow people to unhide accounts if they ever need to access the old transactions again.

Looks like this "separate accounts" feature has been on the Windows version for many years, with people complaining about the same thing, so I assume this is here to stay on the Mac version.

jacobs

Just to make sure no one is overlooking something: clicking the little triangle to the left of Hidden Accounts and Separate Accounts toggles showing/collapsing each of these headings. So if you don't want to see Hidden Accounts, and you collapse that section, all you see is the one line near the bottom of the sidebar:



To me, this keeps them out of sight the way I want most of the time. Bit I do need to occasionally look up some transaction in an old account, and this allows easy access when I do, versus the old approach of needing to go to Show & Hide Accounts, unhide the account, look up something, go back to Show and Hide Accounts, and re-hide the account.

@scubacat Are you saying that seeing this one line at the bottom of the sidebar is very disruptive and what you're so disappointed about? @jasontrout Is this not minimized enough to stay out of your way?

Chris_QPW

On the Windows side this discussion raged quite a bit until Quicken Inc made it clear that what they had done was the "final answer".  Over time the discussions have all gone away and I have some observations that might help in the Mac world.

The main argument is that people say that they don't want to see any reference to those accounts.  But they fail to see the other side of that discussion.  And that is if they are totally hidden you will have other users that can't find them when they need them, but even more important is something that I have notice over time.

I can't tell by @jacobs screenshot but on the Windows side the hidden accounts line also shows the total amount.

This amount has proved to be important.  Yes normally all the hidden accounts are closed, but being closed doesn't stop an accidental transfer to one of those accounts or other problems that change their total. By having a total of zero you can be sure nothing bad has happened in those accounts.

RickO

Yes! That's one of several reasons I like the new Hidden Accounts line in the sidebar. The total should always be zero. If it is ever not, then something went wrong somewhere.

jasontrout

Yes, collapsing the menus is a compromise, but I'd much rather not have these items in my sidebar at all. I get that being able to see that all my closed and zeroed balanced accounts at a glance might be considered a feature by some, but I've never had any need for this in years and years of using Quicken, and to me it seems like a solution in search of a problem. The same goes for the Separate Accounts group being in the sidebar; I monitor accounts for my older relatives but I'd just as soon not see their amounts in my sidebar because, well, it's not my money. It's never been a big deal to do the two extra clicks to go into the Accounts menu and make their accounts visible when i need to look at them. On the whole I'm really disappointed with this latest upgrade, and hope that a future upgrade might provide a way to toggle the visibility of these items on and off in the settings

Unknown

The argument that Hidden Accounts category would show an error if it had a balance, does not make any sense. Not all accounts to be hidden are closed. As we can now mark an account as closed, Quicken should throw an error if a user somehow adds a transaction to a closed account. It is possible to have a balance on this category and not have an error.

To make this argument true, the category should be named "Closed Accounts".

Just because some users have forgotten about the Accounts > Hide and Show Accounts function does not mean all users. Why punish those of us who know how to use the hide accounts function?

The idea of a side bar should be for items you view and use on a regular basis. Other functions and items are best left to subtopics of menus.

Hidden accounts should be not seen. Please, do not rewrite the dictionary.

jacobs

jasontrout said:

it seems like a solution in search of a problem...

Well, you acknowledged why some users would find this beneficial; it's definitely something users have asked for over the years.

And there's another important aspect which many users have asked for: the ability to Search for transactions in Hidden accounts without needing to unhide them, search, and re-hide them. Now that Hidden accounts are in the sidebar, transactions from Hidden (but not Separate) accounts are visible in the transaction register when you click All Transactions at the top of the sidebar, and Search will find transactions in the Hidden accounts. (I believe this will actually cause some users to be unhappy, and think the solution will be adding a toggle somewhere for Search to include/exclude Hidden accounts.)

Ultimately, they may need to add a Preference for whether Hidden and/or Separate accounts are visible in the left sidebar, but I know they try to avoid adding clutter with more preference settings that users might overlook.

I guess I'm still unclear from your response why seeing one line saying "Hidden Accounts   $0" at the bottom of the sidebar is any annoyance, let alone something that makes this entire upgrade such a disappointment to you. To me, I rarely need to access my Hidden accounts -- but having one line at the bottom of sidebar is no big deal to me for the 99.8% of the time I don't care about them, and a nice convenience the 0.2% of the time I want to find an old transaction in a Hidden account.

jacobs

@d Although you can mark an account as Closed in this release, it does not prevent you from adding, editing, or deleting transactions to a closed account. (Perhaps it should, but it doesn't.) So seeing a balance when you expect it to be zero can be helpful for some users in alerting them to possible mistakes.

As for having Hidden accounts which are not closed, that's still okay to do if it fits your needs. And if you never need to access Hidden accounts, you never need to click on it in the sidebar to expand the account list. I'm trying to understand why the presence of that one line at the bottom of the sidebar is an issue. For people who have been asking for easier access to Hidden accounts, for Hidden accounts with balances to be included in their Net Worth, and for the ability to Search in Hidden accounts, this is a win; if you don't care about any of that functionality, can't you just ignore the presence of the one line for Hidden accounts?

Chris_QPW

@jacobs You are never going to "understand" it because this is just the way people are (especially it seems Quicken users).

I have seen long drawn out arguments over the most trivial things, but for some people it is like their life depends on it, by the reactions you get.

It will be interesting to see how the Quicken Mac development reacts to the criticisms.  I have noticed that the Mac side seems to be more flexible in this regard.

Chris_QPW

@d the "argument" holds as far as I can tell whether the accounts all zero out or not.

As in there is still value in knowing if the amounts are changing when you don't expect them to change.

Unknown

@jacobs You have found a BUG in Quicken. There should be an error thrown when someone enters a transaction that affects a closed account. This NEEDS to be fixed. If I accept your ideas, then the Edit account option of Account Display: (Check box) Hide in lists (sidebar, etc.)" is not correct.

If Quicken Inc, is allowed to redefine words, then why not call "Credit Cards" "Night Mares" and "Cash" could be "Dreams"? Hidden should not be seen.

They could give us a function to Hide categories. By right clicking on the category and select that as an option. The default could be to view the category. Similar to account edit function.

The idea of a side bar should be for items you view and use on a regular basis. Anything else clutters the experience. Other functions and items are best left to subtopics of menus. This is the way most applications work and provides the user a common look and feel. Why do you believe that Quicken should be different from other applications in this instance?

For me, to see items that I intended to be hidden is annoying and wrong for the reasons mentioned above.

Unknown

@Chris_QPW If you are using OPEN accounts, that are not "Separate Accounts", then yes. If the balance changes and you are not expecting it to change, the category amount is an indictor of an error. However, calling them Hidden and then showing those accounts is redefining the word Hidden. Perhaps there is another word that would be better suited for your work flow. Maybe, "Old Accounts" or "Unused Accounts"?

@jacobs pointed out, that using a closed account does not throw an error. It should and this is BUG that needs to be fixed. By throwing an error upon entry of the transaction, the user would be informed at that time and the category balance change would not be needed. It would also make it easier for the user to locate and correct the error.

jacobs

@d  You have a view that something which doesn't work as you'd expect, it's a bug. In actuality, the definition of a bug is something that does not operate as it was designed to operate. In this case, I would guess that Closed is functioning as they planned it. I agree with you that marking an account closed should probably preclude making changes to it, but they haven't decided to go that far, at least yet. (But it's not a bug.)

I just don't see how the presence of one line "clutters the user experience". There are many elements in Quicken I don't use, but their presence doesn't get in my way or make me unhappy. (And I like that I can now have quick access to my closed accounts when I'm trying to find a specific old transaction. To me, the previous user experience -- open a dialog box to view my accounts, click a check box to unhide an account, then find what I wanted, then open the dialog box to view accounts again, click the check box to re-hide the account, and click a box to close the window -- was annoying, and they've now made it much smoother.) 

Chris_QPW

On the closed account and how it should behave.

I personally hate anything that is "final".  When such things are put in place the next day you find some reason why you need to make a change and then you can't.

In the Quicken Windows world if you use close account there isn't any away short of going to a backup of reversing that.  It doesn't make the account read-only but it does put it on the hidden list and you can't change that or the status back to open.

For this reason I never use it.  And in fact the whole idea of a closed account is relatively new in Quicken.  I would say in the last 10 years or so.  Before that you just disconnected from downloading and removed any reminders yourself and if you wanted hid it.

Closing an account was put in for the "novice".

If Quicken was a formal accounting package I can see where closing an account and still being able to change things in it as the right thing to do, but Quicken isn't sure an account package and should lean towards being flexible, not "formal".

jacobs

@Chris_QPW  They could make a closed account block new entries or deletions, or even edits that would make the balance nono-zero. And re-opening an account could remove the block. Just because Quicken Windows for some reason has an irreversible close, it doesn't need to be programmed that way. The limited close functionality added to Quicken Mac in this release can be reversed (re-opened) at the click of a button. The same could be true if they made closed accounts unable to be edited. 

Chris_QPW

@jacobs Totally agree.  But the Quicken Windows management tends to be as stubborn as their users when it comes to things like this.  

BTW we do know that they know how to do this because the Starter version will free accounts if you don't renew the subscription.

Unknown

@jacobs How you want it to look is up to you. I prefer a minimalist view. Which is why I want the option to hide a category in the side bar. I am not auditing the Net Worth, just setting the side bar to what is relevant for my work flow.

TL;DR:
Project managers and their teams are people. People make mistakes, even in designing software. If a function is needed to maintain the integrity and usability of the application and it is missing, that is a bug. The user should be provided with the best possible product, regardless of the design specifications. If the design failed to include an add function, am certain you would say that is a bug. To allow a user to add a new transaction to what is supposed to be a closed account makes no sense. If you prefer, we could call it an enhancement. Either way it is needed.

One addtional line, for most people, would not be a hindrance. However, this sets a precedence and opens the application many more just-one-line-added. They did not add just one line. They also added Separate Accounts category. The view point of just-one-of-anything has rarely worked out in the long run. If we are to go down this road then lets open this up and allow users to add custom categories. That way I can have my Dreams and Night Mares categories and change the name from Hidden to Whatever.

The addition of Separate Accounts is understandable, especially with your view of Quicken. I see future nightmares for Quicken. These could be easily resolved with multiple Quicken files and a new category in the side bar to allow a user to select Quicken files. But, that wasn't the option they choose. When users ask for reporting functions and other functions (that are not present) in Quicken for these accounts, it will be much harder to implement. Users maybe forced to export and create new Quicken files. When they should have been given a means to create these files within their current Quicken file. That would have provided all of Quicken and not forced a lot of recoding later. In the short term Separate Accounts is a good feature. In the long term it is a nightmare waiting to happen.

Chris_QPW

For what it is worth one of the few times that the user comments did win such an argument with the Windows management proves that it can be done without cluttering up the preferences dialog.

Right clicking the account bar gives this menu.


And the reason I point at the Show Credit Score is because it can be totally hidden.


And @d on the Separate becoming a nightmare it hasn't on Windows for a simple reason the only place this is used is the account bar.  It doesn't apply anywhere else including the reports.  The hiding of accounts is a different matter, there is an option for hiding account on the menu and reports, but for "separate" accounts one would have to customize a report and remove the accounts the don't want.

JSH56

Released 7/13/20 I think. Not a fan of the new "Separate Accounts" feature. Since this seems to be for a small minority of users, why do all of us have to see it. There needs to be a Hide function for this in the Register Toolbar.

rita

I am a long time user - 30 years at least of Quicken. The sum attached to my separate accounts is false. It includes, among many things, the last figures before I decided following stock trades in Quicken for Mac was impossible to do accurately and a waste of my time. I migrated from Quicken for Windows years ago, and still regret it.

How is an account "Hidden" if it's right there on the sidebar? There are lots of reasons it may be desirable to put an account in that category, and visit it occasionally. Hidden and Separate do not mean closed, nor do they necessarily amount to zero. Just because something works for one person does not mean it works for everybody, and allowing an option for these things to be out of view - off the sidebar - shouldn't be that difficult.

not_a_fan

And the Quicken folks wonder why customers are constantly looking for another product to move to? Seriously. Add another switch to the View menu to allow users to show/hide the separate accounts or the hidden accounts. This is a TRIVIAL change. That way, if you want it, you have it. If you don't, it's gone. But they are so busy adding features we don't want they don't have time to add features we do want. I was close to moving to another product when they went to the subscription model. This sidebar thing is just another reason to look elsewhere. History is littered with companies who failed because they didn't listen to their customers... I'm thinking Quicken is heading that way...

Kristi Roberts

They just keep cluttering things up and making the product worse. I don't want to see my separate accounts, i don't want to see my hidden accounts either on the tool bar. It needs to be fixed asap, give us an option to hide this stuff.

jmbrocks

I also just got the update and totally DISLIKE (to put it kindly) the new Hidden and Separate Accounts in the Sidebar. Quicken just adding more clutter, and as stated in previous posts, there hidden y me because I do NOT want to see them anymore. It really wasn't that hard to find them if I wanted to unhide them. Quicken...PLEASE if you want to make things easier, give users the option to hide and show sections in the Sidebar, that way those of us who do not want the clutter can clean up our sidebar.

Listen to your users Quicken and do the right thing or you might end up losing paid users.

KenC

How do I make the Separate Accounts higher on the sidebar so it's not stuck at the bottom?

I hate this new feature. In the recent previous version of Quicken (just a few days ago before the update), I had two accounts in Hide in Reports. Now Hide in Reports is no longer available. It became Separate Accounts. I have to hide those two accounts to keep them out of Accounts Summary otherwise it's double counting and my net worth goes wacky.

But there's no other way to categorize or hide/show those two accounts for what I need. They should not be hidden because they're regularly downloading transactions and I'm always looking at them.

I only want to hide them in reports. I don't want them relegated to the bottom of the sidebar.

quickone

Yep....don't know what they were thinking when they added (foisted upon) that without option. Bad design decision. REVERT!

gnome90

I don't like it, don't want it. If you can add it you can make it optional.

quickone

OK, after playing with the new "Separate Accounts" and "Close account" feature, it's not so bad. It just makes a terrible first impression because of what it does to your accounts by default.

After going through the accounts and turning off what was made separate, it has some utility. It just requires clean-up by the user which is going to freak out and confuse people at first. So.....I get what the design team was trying to do, but it's going to be painful for some at first.

tim.rohrer

I'm in the camp that is confused by this new "feature". And the statement by someone above that the balance of these should be zero. Conceptually I can understand it, but there are circumstances where I just simply quick tracking that account, and by hiding it from reports and the sidebar, the program behaved like they didn't exist (unless I wanted to go back and look at them).

More troubling is that my net worth changed when this feature was added, so now I don't know if I should be trusting the calculations. I'm going to be spending hours (most likely multiple) reviewing every single account I had stopped using/tracking to try and get it binned the way Quicken apparently thinks it should, and I don't understand what benefit I'm getting from this? What problems were being solved?

Frankly, I wish Quicken would spend less time on "improvements" like this and bill pay, and more on investment tracking and analysis.

jacobs

tim.rohrer said:

I'm going to be spending hours (most likely multiple) reviewing every single account I had stopped using/tracking to try and get it binned the way Quicken apparently thinks it should

@tim.rohrer Can you not simply go down the list of accounts, double click each account, click Close Account, and move on to the next? That will remove the balances (at least for non-investment accounts) without requiring any significant time (well, minutes, not hours. ) For investment accounts with balances, you need to remove shares to zero out the accounts; perhaps a one-time annoyance, but pretty quick to clean up, I'd think.

As to why they did this, it's because while some users don't want to see closed accounts, some users have asked for this exact functionality. As well as separate accounts, to see data they're tracking for a child/parent/business but not include it in their Net Worth. (And also: Quicken Windows has features similar to this.) And, importantly, this change also allows the Search feature to find transactions in closed accounts (which were previously not searchable because you couldn't open them to view their transactions unless you un-hid them).

The apparent solution to conflicting wishes is to create a preference setting, to allow everyone to have it the way they want it. I think the developers try to avoid creating extra preferences because some users won't know they're there and will be even more confused. So they try to implement features they think everyone will be okay with, and then listen to feedback to see if they need to make iterative changes to the feature. Most recently, the way QuickFill rules worked took a few iterations until the developers agreed to add preference settings they initially stated weren't needed.