quicken investment register not showing negative balance in account bar

questionsforever
questionsforever Member ✭✭✭
I entered a stock buy transaction and in the ledger at bottom right it shows a negative cash balance but in the account bar it just shows a small positive number that looks like an unrealized gain. Is it a corrupt file or some normal behaviour?

Answers

  • UKR
    UKR SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Account Bar shows the Total Market Value ( = Securities Value +/- Cash Balance).
    Look at the bottom right of the account register for the breakdown.
    If you just started with an empty account, Cash Balance $0.00, and recorded your first Buy:
    Buy 100 sh XYZ @ $5.00 per share, Commission $4.99, for a total of $504.99
    then Total Market Value should be $500.00 - $504.99 = (-$4.99)
    If, since the Buy an updated share price was downloaded or entered as $5.10,
    then Total Market Value should be $510.00 - $504.99 = $5.01
    Use the Portfolio View to review Gain / Loss details.
  • Boatnmaniac
    Boatnmaniac SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    If your register (lower right corner) is showing a negative cash balance after making the security purchase it tells me the cash balance in your account prior to the purchase was wrong (understated).  A legitimate account cash balance will be $0.00 or a larger positive number, not a negative number.  You might want to do a reconciliation on your account cash balance to find out why your account register cash balance is incorrect.
    (QW Premier Subscription: R42.21 on Windows 10)
  • questionsforever
    questionsforever Member ✭✭✭
    The account bar should show your net worth therefore i expected it to show the negative cash balance of the account. all my other investment accounts that have a margin and a negative cash balance (with a separate linked checking account) show a red negative number. But an investment account without a linked checking account seems to only show the unrealized gain or loss. Is it a bug?
  • Boatnmaniac
    Boatnmaniac SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2021
    Ah, you have investments bought on margin.  I don't buy on margin but it is my understanding that Quicken does not manage margin purchases correctly when it comes to net worth and cash balances.  In my mind, the liability created by a margin purchase should not be changing the cash balance of an investment account at all.  Instead, it should be reducing the net worth of the security that was bought.  I would go nuts if my investment accounts cash balances were negative because of margin purchases because that is not reality.  Still, from what I've read in this forum, others have managed it the way you are so at least there is a band-aid way to address this.
    None of my investment accounts have linked checking accounts.  Each investment account shows a correct net worth (securities net market value + cash balance).  But, again, I don't buy on margin so I don't know how that might be affecting the accounts net worths of those who do. 
    In my test files I do have some brokerage accounts with a linked checking account.  For these, the brokerage accounts shows only the securities net market value and does not include the cash balance.  The cash balance is instead included in the net worth of my spending accounts because the linked checking accounts are classified as spending accounts.
    I would think there should be a way to set up Buy transactions where the margin data can be entered and that would then correctly decrement the cash balance and also create a margin liability for the security that would appropriately decrement the net market value and net worth.
    There is a product improvement requested regarding this that is posted at https://community.quicken.com/discussion/7892148/have-quicken-correctly-report-total-market-value-of-margin-investment-accounts.  If you agree with that request, I suggest you vote for it.  The Quicken Team does review product improvement requests.  The more people who vote for something, the more likely it is that at some point it will be added to their product development plan.
    (QW Premier Subscription: R42.21 on Windows 10)
  • questionsforever
    questionsforever Member ✭✭✭
    this is clearly a bug of some sort but why is it selective. On the left summary of accounts i see several accounts of mine in RED , a negative cash balance. bottom is the summary of net worth. but for this new investment account without linked checking account when i just enter 'buy xyz stock' with no cash in the account, it does not show in the account bar as negative cash value. It shows the difference of market price of security and purchase price (unrealized capital gain). this is clearly a bug as account bar on left shows the value of accounts not their unrealized gains or losses ever!
  • Tom Young
    Tom Young SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    The long and the short of the situation is that Quicken is not set up to handle margin purchases.  To get your net worth properly stated there's a couple of viable approaches I can come up with.
    The first is to set up a liability Account in Quicken with a name like "Margin Loans" and transfer cash from the Margin Loan Account into the Investment Account.  That will make the Investment Account show the correct Holdings number for the securities in the Account with the margin loan Account showing the liability in the Property & Debt section. 
    The other way could be to create a manual "security" called "Margin Loan" and sell that security short - "X" number of shares @ $1/share.  In that situation the Investment Account will show the net value of the Account - all "real" securities minus the "margin loan" security.
  • questionsforever
    questionsforever Member ✭✭✭
    this is not the issue exactly but I'll try to get a screenshot next week.

    quicken does very well show negative balanced in an account. i have several investment accounts with linked checking account that show in the account bar in red ,. negative cash balance.

    however when i create a new investment account and simply enter to buy say 100 shares of XYZ at $100 it does not show minus -(10000) in the account bar as it should. even if i create a linked checking account it does not. it shows the difference between the price of XYZ 100 and the market price (say it was 110) it will show 10.

    not sure if this is a problem with newly created investment account or something else.
  • Boatnmaniac
    Boatnmaniac SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2021
    ...however when i create a new investment account and simply enter to buy say 100 shares of XYZ at $100 it does not show minus -(10000) in the account bar as it should. even if i create a linked checking account it does not. it shows the difference between the price of XYZ 100 and the market price (say it was 110) it will show 10.
    No, the Account Bar on the left should not show -$10,000 because -$10,000 is only part of the calculation.  It should show $1,000 because it represents the Securities Value of $11,000 (100 shares current market value @ $110/share) offset by the Cash Balance of -$10,000 (100 shares purchased @ $100/share). 
    Here's a test of this I set up (in the US version but I would think that the Canadian version is similar) that reflects my understanding of the example you provided.  Pay special attention to the bottom right of the register screen.  It shows "Security Value", "Cash Balance" and "Total Market Value".  Total Market Value is the Security Value + the Cash Balance.  Total Market Value is what should be also showing in the Account Bar on the left.: 
    • This shows the purchase of XYZ on 8/31 @ $100 per share.  It correctly shows the Total Market Value of $0.00 because the Securities Value and the Cash Balance cancel each other out...and that is also what is reflected in the Account Bar on the left.
    • This next picture shows what this same account looks like on 9/1 after the stock price increased to $110 per share.  Now the Securities Value has gone up to $11,000 but the Cash Balance still shows -$10,000.  So the Total Market Value is $1,000...which is what is shown both on the right at the bottom of the Account Register screen and in the Account Bar on the left.
    It is simply coincidence that the Total Market Value equals what the Cap Gains would be if you were to sell those shares @ $110/share. 

    You can verify this by adding $10,000 cash to the account.  It would change the Cash Balance from -$10,000 to $0 and the Total Market Value at the bottom right and in the Account Bar on the left would increase from $1,000 to $11,000. 

    If you were to instead add $20,000 cash to the account the Account Bar and the Total Market Value would be increased to $21,000.

    This is exactly how Quicken should be showing the data.

    As I'd mentioned earlier, unless you are using negative cash balances to fund margin buys, there is no good reason I can think of for having a negative balance in an investment account.  It just creates Account Balance and Total Market Value issues and does not reflect reality.  If this transaction is not a margin purchase I recommend you add $10,000 cash to the account (or use another account) to fund the Buy and the Total Market Value issue you are seeing will go away.
    (QW Premier Subscription: R42.21 on Windows 10)
  • Tom Young
    Tom Young SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    "this is not the issue exactly but I'll try to get a screenshot next week."
    Don't bother.  The Account Bar number is exactly correct: the value of securities in the Account minus the margin loan.  If you only have one security and you bought the security entirely on margin then the net result is the unrealized gain. 
    It seemed like you somehow wanted to explicitly have a "margin loan" separated from the negative cash position - which actually can be different than the margin loan amount - so I gave you a couple of options as to how to do it. 
This discussion has been closed.