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In newest updates Q stops us form using negative numbers for interest or dividends (5 merged votes)

Stephen FisherStephen Fisher Member ✭✭✭
edited May 15 in Investments (Mac)
I ned to enter negative numbers at tax time.  Please restore that. 
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  • Stephen FisherStephen Fisher Member ✭✭✭
    Or solve this problem by allowing us to add our own custom income categories that permit a negative number if your internal ones can't be changed for technical reasons.
  • mshigginsmshiggins SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is no such thing as a negative dividend. 
    Quicken user since Q1999. Currently using QW2017.
    Questions? Check out the  Quicken Windows FAQ list
  • NotACPANotACPA SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    "There is no such thing as a negative dividend."
    I suspect, and I so replied in his other thread, that he was paid a dividend at sometime in the year that was re-characterized at year-end to be partially a Return-of-Capital (or some such).
    For that situation, the proper process would be to edit that prior dividend and split it so that it's now accurate.
    Q user since DOS version 5
    Now running Quicken Windows Subscription,  Home & Business
    Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP
  • Stephen FisherStephen Fisher Member ✭✭✭
    There would be 100s of monthly distributions to change so editing is not a desirable option.  The real issue, whether or not there is "no such thing as a negative dividend" is that Q has allowed me to do this from 1984 thru 2018 and there is no logical reason for them to have changed this now. Or for me to have taken steps to avoid this problem.

    Moreover it is standard practice for accountants to enter a negative number for accrued interest (for example), usually on January first to balance the cash thrown off by entering accrued interest on bonds at year end. So expecting to be able to enter a negative income amount is by no means unreasonable. 
  • smayer97smayer97 SuperUser, Mac Beta, Canada Beta ✭✭✭✭✭
    BTW, there is such as thing as negative interest. Leave it to the wisdom of governments to come up with that one in recent years. See Switzerland, Japan, Denmark, Sweden as examples.
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  • smayer97smayer97 SuperUser, Mac Beta, Canada Beta ✭✭✭✭✭
    ... interest rates, that is
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    Canadian Q user since '92, STILL using QM2007)

  • Allowing Negative Dividend Entries

    Unlike Quicken 2007, Quicken Premier Mac 2019 only allows positive Dividend entries.  While this is normally the case, there are times when it is useful to allow negative dividend entries.

    An example, is an investment that pays monthly dividends, but at the end of the year you receive a 1099 tax reporting form or other notification that some of the monthly distributions that were initially classified as Dividends are actually non-dividend distributions (Return of Capital) or Capital Gain Distributions, etc. 

    I normally adjust my Quicken entries (in Quicken 2007) to tie to the 1099 tax reports so my financial records in Quicken are consistent with my income tax filings.  Rather than go into each of the 12 monthly transactions and reduce each of the dividend amounts and create a new transaction for the the Return of Capital, etc., I would simply make a single negative Dividend entry on 12/31 (labeled “to tie to 1099”) with a single Return of Capital transaction (or whatever the correct classification of the dollars are transaction is) to offset the dividend so that cash balance is unchanged.

    Perhaps you can allow negative Dividends with a pop up alert asking “Are you sure you want a negative dividend entry?”

    Finally, the same applies to any other investment actions that might not now allow negative entries.

    Thank you.

    Mike

  • J_MikeJ_Mike SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here is a very recent thread on this same topic:

    how-do-i-enter-a-negative-amount-for-a-dividend-the-minus-sign-doesnt-work-anymore

    I too use the procedure you have outlined and I posted my work-around for this issue. The work-around is far from ideal but does record the desired results for tax purposes.

    FWIW, QWin allowed negative dividend entries up until a change sometime in the past 2-3 years. One now has to devise a similar work-around in QWin.
    QWin & QMac (Deluxe) Subscription
    Quicken user since 1991

  • Thanks J_Mike.  I went to your workaround post and it is helpful, but clearly not as good as allowing negative Dividends within the investment transactions.  While the workaround will keep the Quicken Schedule B total as it should be, it will not link the reclassification of the dividend to the particular security where it should be.  So you lose the ability to compare dividends for that security in the Quicken Tax Schedule with the supplemental 1099 information on dividends by security, in order to find the source of any discrepancies in the total dividends reported.  Mike
  • JayDCJayDC Member ✭✭
    Each month a couple of securities post two dividends to my ML account. One is a positive amount, like $150.00 and the other is a negative amount, like ($2.50). When entering this transaction under Brokerage Account, the Type selected is Dividend Income, however, if you enter a negative amount, it changes it to a positive. I am assuming one work-around would be to do the math yourself and enter the difference between the two. Old Quicken 2007 would allow negative sums. Any thoughts on this??
  • NotACPANotACPA SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Look into that negative transaction.  It actually sounds like a fee, of some sort, from either ML or the company.
    With more info about this, including the name of the company,we can help you further.
    Q user since DOS version 5
    Now running Quicken Windows Subscription,  Home & Business
    Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP
  • J_MikeJ_Mike SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have not found a satisfactory work-around for entering negative dividends in QMac.
    The solution is do the math yourself and enter the net amount.

    QWin allows negative dividends and I have used it in situations such as you are encountering - but not in the current QMac.
    QWin & QMac (Deluxe) Subscription
    Quicken user since 1991

  • JayDCJayDC Member ✭✭
    Aha....thought that might be the case. The problem with entering it under another category to make it work is that it won't keep track of the Dividends accurately. Would seem like an easy fix for Quicken.
  • GillesGilles Member, Mac Beta ✭✭✭
    When I receive US dividends, there is an amount which I enter as Dividend
    then I have "Tax withheld"
    I enter this later as Misc. expense, with the Category "Tax withheld" with the Stock name under Security
    Works fine for me
  • NotACPANotACPA SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    @jaydc, again, what companies?  Are they, perhaps,foreign companies and the "negative dividend" is some sort of foreign tax?
    Q user since DOS version 5
    Now running Quicken Windows Subscription,  Home & Business
    Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP
  • Chris_QPWChris_QPW Member ✭✭✭✭
    Even though Quicken Windows allows this I would say that in fact a "negative dividend" is an incorrectly categorized transaction.

    The definition of a dividend:
    • A sum of money paid regularly (typically quarterly) by a company to its shareholders out of its profits (or reserves).

    A negative amount implies that you are paying the company, which is impossible, shareholders don't pay the company.

    (I'm using the latest Quicken subscription version)
  • NotACPANotACPA SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Chris_QPW that's why I keep asking for the name of the specific security.
    The $2.50 could be a FI management fee, a foreign tax, a currency conversion  fee or any number of things.
    BUT, a "negative dividend" is an oxymoron.
    Q user since DOS version 5
    Now running Quicken Windows Subscription,  Home & Business
    Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP
  • JayDCJayDC Member ✭✭
    It does appear to be a "agency processing fee" or
    "Frgn W/[email protected]". Interestingly enough when I imported Q2007 to Q2020, it imported the negatives that I had entered as negatives. As folks have pointed out, there is no such thing as a negative dividend. There are negatives, but they are fees or foreign taxes, etc. As such, there should be an expense account under your Tax Expense Category as a Subcategory: Foreign Taxes or perhaps a subcategory under Investment Expenses: Fees to property record this. Seems to happen with Canadian Securities, or in one case GlaxoSmithKline, which in that case was a processing fee. If I want to be a nerd about this, I should go back and change the negatives to reflect the expenses that they are.
  • NotACPANotACPA SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    That "Frgn W/H" looks like a foreign tax withholding, in the country that's home to the company.
    I'd record it as a tax ...not as an Investment fee.  It MIGHT be reportable on your Tax return.
    Q user since DOS version 5
    Now running Quicken Windows Subscription,  Home & Business
    Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP
  • micha8stmicha8st Member ✭✭
    In investing I've got some weird situations. DRIPs where the brokerage charges a fee. foreign investments where taxes are withheld. ADR ( fees from a brokerage.

    In the case of DRIPs with a fee, the "Reinvest Dividends" transaction type allows entry of a fee.

    In the case of ADRs and Taxes, I end up entering separate transactions of type "Miscellaneous Expense". Then in the Description / Category column, I assign to Taxes:Foreign for the tax case, and investment expense for the ADR case.

    ADR stands for American Depositary Receipt, and (reading just now at schwab.com) you don't actually hold the foreign stock, but you hold the equivalent through a bank or brokerage. This is apparently how you hold foreign stocks when an American.
  • RedrivermanRedriverman Member ✭✭
    I'm presently wrestling with this situation. The actual events are triggered by the need to reclassify (prior year) dividends once the issuer has reported the proportion that was Return Of Capital [ROC]. In QMac 2007, in order to balance account cash, once the ROC transaction is recorded an offsetting negative dividend amount transaction is required. This has been a long established and recommended approach for QMac 2007 users on this forum. The companion transactions should rightfully be recorded in the tax year of reporting but many issuers don't report the allocations (breakdown) until Q1. It does help to accurately distinguish dividends received from ROC for beneficial tax treatment. What approach would be appropriate for users of QMac 2020?
  • J_MikeJ_Mike SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm presently wrestling with this situation. The actual events are triggered by the need to reclassify (prior year) dividends once the issuer has reported the proportion that was Return Of Capital [ROC]. In QMac 2007, in order to balance account cash, once the ROC transaction is recorded an offsetting negative dividend amount transaction is required. This has been a long established and recommended approach for QMac 2007 users on this forum. The companion transactions should rightfully be recorded in the tax year of reporting but many issuers don't report the allocations (breakdown) until Q1. It does help to accurately distinguish dividends received from ROC for beneficial tax treatment. What approach would be appropriate for users of QMac 2020?
    In the current QMac, I have reorted to going back in the register and editing the Dividend transactions - reducing the dividend amount and adding the ROC (same date) to offset.
    I start with the most recent dividend and work backwards.
    I do want to see the register running balance in sync with my FI's running balance.
    This gets a bit complicated when one has to change several dividends to get to the right totals - a golden opportunity to shot ones self in the foot with math errors.
    I also make a note in the Memo field for these affected transactions - like "Adj To 1099R".
    It's a pain but gets the desired results - the negative dividend was so much easier.

    QWin & QMac (Deluxe) Subscription
    Quicken user since 1991

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