Lifetime Planner RMD tables in Quicken 2017 [Mods - Do Not Archive]

Unknown

The RMD calculations in the Quicken 2015 Lifetime Planner are wrong.  The program requires you to take too much money from your 401K.  

Can anyone using Quicken 2017 tell me if this problem has been corrected.  

Thanks

(Please Preserve-Part of an active Idea)

mshiggins

Can you provide an example we can use for testing?

Unknown

The current divisor for a single person (unmarried owner) reaching age 70.5 is 27.4. Even assuming an allowance of additional amounts for federal tax ( which would be a bad assumption on Quicken's part), the planner withdraws well above this amount on the "total your tax deferred" figure.

Unknown

Thanks fanfare.  
Mshiggins: Any data you have can be used, assuming you have some 401K savings.  Just temporarily set your spending to $100, and the tax rate to 0.  Take the total amt of your 401K savings when you are 71 (or any year past 70), and divide by the amount the planner tells you to take in the next year (eg., when you are 72).  That should be the value that the IRS publishes.  As Fanfare said, it is 27.4 for when you are 70-1/2.  If the number you get from Quicken is less than the IRS table, it is taking too much; if greater than the table, it is taking too little.  In Quicken 2015, I get a value of 23.10, which means Quicken is taking way too much money.

Unknown

Other than this community entry, is there something I should do to officially report the problem?  

Based on looking at the community entries, it appears that Quicken has dropped supporting the Lifetime Planner.  That is a shame in my opinion.

mshiggins

What is your setting for inflation?



What posts make you think Quicken does not support the Lifetime Planner?

Unknown

i had set the inflation to 0 in another test, and it actually made the #s worse.  The IRS tables for 72 & 73 are 27.4 and 26.5.  With an inflation of 3%, I got 23.8 and 22.9.  With an inflation of 0, I got 23.1 and 22.2.

As to support, you are correct in that the Planner is supported.  On the other hand, I guess I don't see any activity to keep up with Social Security changes.  I'm not asking the development team to enhance the tool, although I would love it.  But it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect them to keep current with the Social Security rules.  Note that I saw entries in the forums that the Lifetime Planner also had not been updated to reflect Social Security estimated income changes (I have not tested this).  

I understand that development is focused on adding features that will get more customers.  That is great because I don't want the product to disappear.  But some attention should be paid to fixing long standing issues.  I would also like to see a forum entry from development listing all the bug fixes included.  While it will not get more customers, it might get a number of users to upgrade more often than every 3 years.

Unknown

I believe that when Quicken, Inc. was part of Intuit, all the tax and social security data came from the Turbo Tax unit at Intuit. As in any large company (and especially toward the end of the year), the Turbo Tax unit was not always responsive in giving Quicken the proper figures.

Now that Quicken is no longer part of Intuit, I hope that Quicken will designate someone within their organization to take care of these figures and that the Lifetime Planner and Tax Planner will get more timely updates.

mshiggins

QuickenUserDC said:

I believe that when Quicken, Inc. was part of Intuit, all the tax and social security data came from the Turbo Tax unit at Intuit. As in any large company (and especially toward the end of the year), the Turbo Tax unit was not always responsive in giving Quicken the proper figures.

Now that Quicken is no longer part of Intuit, I hope that Quicken will designate someone within their organization to take care of these figures and that the Lifetime Planner and Tax Planner will get more timely updates.

Well hopefully Quicken Inc will get their tax info direct from the IRS. Waiting to get info from the Turbotax side of the business was not a good idea.

mshiggins

User500327 said:

i had set the inflation to 0 in another test, and it actually made the #s worse.  The IRS tables for 72 & 73 are 27.4 and 26.5.  With an inflation of 3%, I got 23.8 and 22.9.  With an inflation of 0, I got 23.1 and 22.2.

As to support, you are correct in that the Planner is supported.  On the other hand, I guess I don't see any activity to keep up with Social Security changes.  I'm not asking the development team to enhance the tool, although I would love it.  But it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect them to keep current with the Social Security rules.  Note that I saw entries in the forums that the Lifetime Planner also had not been updated to reflect Social Security estimated income changes (I have not tested this).  

I understand that development is focused on adding features that will get more customers.  That is great because I don't want the product to disappear.  But some attention should be paid to fixing long standing issues.  I would also like to see a forum entry from development listing all the bug fixes included.  While it will not get more customers, it might get a number of users to upgrade more often than every 3 years.

What social security changes are not being kept up with?

Unknown

QuickenUserDC said:

I believe that when Quicken, Inc. was part of Intuit, all the tax and social security data came from the Turbo Tax unit at Intuit. As in any large company (and especially toward the end of the year), the Turbo Tax unit was not always responsive in giving Quicken the proper figures.

Now that Quicken is no longer part of Intuit, I hope that Quicken will designate someone within their organization to take care of these figures and that the Lifetime Planner and Tax Planner will get more timely updates.

Agreed, it's often reported during beta testing or with the first public release that one or more figures have not been updated to the newest values (this goes for the mileage reimbursement figures as well).

mshiggins

QuickenUserDC said:

I believe that when Quicken, Inc. was part of Intuit, all the tax and social security data came from the Turbo Tax unit at Intuit. As in any large company (and especially toward the end of the year), the Turbo Tax unit was not always responsive in giving Quicken the proper figures.

Now that Quicken is no longer part of Intuit, I hope that Quicken will designate someone within their organization to take care of these figures and that the Lifetime Planner and Tax Planner will get more timely updates.

And what to me is doubly annoying is the info is often available long before that time.

Bob_L

User500327 said:

i had set the inflation to 0 in another test, and it actually made the #s worse.  The IRS tables for 72 & 73 are 27.4 and 26.5.  With an inflation of 3%, I got 23.8 and 22.9.  With an inflation of 0, I got 23.1 and 22.2.

As to support, you are correct in that the Planner is supported.  On the other hand, I guess I don't see any activity to keep up with Social Security changes.  I'm not asking the development team to enhance the tool, although I would love it.  But it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect them to keep current with the Social Security rules.  Note that I saw entries in the forums that the Lifetime Planner also had not been updated to reflect Social Security estimated income changes (I have not tested this).  

I understand that development is focused on adding features that will get more customers.  That is great because I don't want the product to disappear.  But some attention should be paid to fixing long standing issues.  I would also like to see a forum entry from development listing all the bug fixes included.  While it will not get more customers, it might get a number of users to upgrade more often than every 3 years.

@user500327 The tables for 72 and 73 are 25.6 and 24.7.  I checked age 73 in my planner and it computed to 24.5...not too far off...using current dollars. However, I got a lower divisor of 23.6 when I used future dollars which doesn't make sense to me.  That is, I would expect the RMD to be different but not the divisor.    I am using QW2017, r3

SandraStowell

Has another lifetime planner problem been corrected in Q2017?  There have been problems printing & no way to export planning assumptions or results. The PRINT button on the Lifetime Planner planning assumptions in Q2015 creates PDF files with no data, & I don't see any way to print the Lifetime Planner results except by multiple screen prints.  This is frustrating.

I upgrade to keep bank connectivity, but there have been no other benefits to upgrades for the past 2-3 versions.  I have not seen any changes in Q2017 that would be useful to me, so far.

Bob_L

SandraStowell said:

Has another lifetime planner problem been corrected in Q2017?  There have been problems printing & no way to export planning assumptions or results. The PRINT button on the Lifetime Planner planning assumptions in Q2015 creates PDF files with no data, & I don't see any way to print the Lifetime Planner results except by multiple screen prints.  This is frustrating.

I upgrade to keep bank connectivity, but there have been no other benefits to upgrades for the past 2-3 versions.  I have not seen any changes in Q2017 that would be useful to me, so far.

Looks to me like the printing problems remain in QW 2017 R 4

SandraStowell

SandraStowell said:

Has another lifetime planner problem been corrected in Q2017?  There have been problems printing & no way to export planning assumptions or results. The PRINT button on the Lifetime Planner planning assumptions in Q2015 creates PDF files with no data, & I don't see any way to print the Lifetime Planner results except by multiple screen prints.  This is frustrating.

I upgrade to keep bank connectivity, but there have been no other benefits to upgrades for the past 2-3 versions.  I have not seen any changes in Q2017 that would be useful to me, so far.

Thank you for this info, & sorry to hear this. I was really pleased to get "real time" data for almost all my accounts into such a customizable retirement planner:  so disappointing not to have export or good reports, etc.   I did find one set of options that lets me print the L. Planner assumptions:  print  to my Epson or Samsung  gives me one page only, but I can print the whole to a PDF file IF (& only if!) I select landscape mode. The PDF is a bit ugly, but can be printed from Adobe Reader. For top level & what if charts use print screen.

mshiggins

SandraStowell said:

Has another lifetime planner problem been corrected in Q2017?  There have been problems printing & no way to export planning assumptions or results. The PRINT button on the Lifetime Planner planning assumptions in Q2015 creates PDF files with no data, & I don't see any way to print the Lifetime Planner results except by multiple screen prints.  This is frustrating.

I upgrade to keep bank connectivity, but there have been no other benefits to upgrades for the past 2-3 versions.  I have not seen any changes in Q2017 that would be useful to me, so far.

Agree. The printing problem still exists.

Unknown

User500327 said:

i had set the inflation to 0 in another test, and it actually made the #s worse.  The IRS tables for 72 & 73 are 27.4 and 26.5.  With an inflation of 3%, I got 23.8 and 22.9.  With an inflation of 0, I got 23.1 and 22.2.

As to support, you are correct in that the Planner is supported.  On the other hand, I guess I don't see any activity to keep up with Social Security changes.  I'm not asking the development team to enhance the tool, although I would love it.  But it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect them to keep current with the Social Security rules.  Note that I saw entries in the forums that the Lifetime Planner also had not been updated to reflect Social Security estimated income changes (I have not tested this).  

I understand that development is focused on adding features that will get more customers.  That is great because I don't want the product to disappear.  But some attention should be paid to fixing long standing issues.  I would also like to see a forum entry from development listing all the bug fixes included.  While it will not get more customers, it might get a number of users to upgrade more often than every 3 years.

This problem has gone on for years. The program is using the wrong table figures for your age. The table does NOT change each year, it is constant. Nobody at quicken seems to care. All they want is money.

Bedford

I have Quicken 2018 R4.10.  RMD amounts are till way overstated.  Does anyone know (superusers?) if there arte any plans to make this simple fix?

Bob_L

Bedford said:

I have Quicken 2018 R4.10.  RMD amounts are till way overstated.  Does anyone know (superusers?) if there arte any plans to make this simple fix?

I  see overly high RMDs as well.  I did a quick back of the envelope and it looked to me like maybe they were applying the RMD divisor to Roth balances.  Any chance that is what you are seeing as well? 

mshiggins

Bedford said:

I have Quicken 2018 R4.10.  RMD amounts are till way overstated.  Does anyone know (superusers?) if there arte any plans to make this simple fix?

Bob, have you looked at the results if you temporarily exclude the Roth account(s) from the planner?

Bob_L

Bedford said:

I have Quicken 2018 R4.10.  RMD amounts are till way overstated.  Does anyone know (superusers?) if there arte any plans to make this simple fix?

Good idea as I had not done that, and the RMD stayed the same so that is not the problem.

Bedford

Bedford said:

I have Quicken 2018 R4.10.  RMD amounts are till way overstated.  Does anyone know (superusers?) if there arte any plans to make this simple fix?

It seems like such an obvious problem, with a rather simple formula involved.  As far as anyone knows, has anyone from Quicken support ever reviewed or commented on the problem?   Is Quicken support aware of the problem?

SandraStowell

It would be nice to know what, if any, priority Quicken gives to the Planner.  It seems that all the effort has been to get us onto the annual subscription model, and keeping up with online banking, etc. 
I realize that downloads & online connectivity is critical, but  ... retaining features that seem useful but are just incorrect is pretty serious in financial software.  Surely accurate computations are a pretty basic aspect?

mshiggins

SandraStowell said:

It would be nice to know what, if any, priority Quicken gives to the Planner.  It seems that all the effort has been to get us onto the annual subscription model, and keeping up with online banking, etc. 
I realize that downloads & online connectivity is critical, but  ... retaining features that seem useful but are just incorrect is pretty serious in financial software.  Surely accurate computations are a pretty basic aspect?

I am apprehensive as to what might happen if Quicken Inc decided to "fix" the Lifetime Planner. It likely won't be in a manner users expect.

Bob_L

I did some research via quicken onboard help, and I may have found the problem. It turns out they use the Term Certain method to calculate RMDs. That is where you take life expectancy at first year of distributions, and then reduce by one each year going forward. So I guess the suggestion to developers is to have a preference setting for what method to use. (I did not run the numbers to verify this is what they did, deciding instead to take their word for what they put in the help file. Even if the calc is right or wrong, it is not what I imagine most folks want!)

Art Kirschmann

The RMD only includes the IRA.  When I zeroed the Roth the withdrawal stayed the same. That be said the RMD is way to high - For me, it calculates $79k while in reality it is $43k.

Bob_L

Art Kirschmann said:

The RMD only includes the IRA.  When I zeroed the Roth the withdrawal stayed the same. That be said the RMD is way to high - For me, it calculates $79k while in reality it is $43k.

Roth accounts do not have RMDs (maybe for inherited ones ?).

Art Kirschmann

Art Kirschmann said:

The RMD only includes the IRA.  When I zeroed the Roth the withdrawal stayed the same. That be said the RMD is way to high - For me, it calculates $79k while in reality it is $43k.

I was just verifying that the Roth IRA was not included in the Q RMD calc.  Per the IRS my divisor for age 76 is 22.0 (RMD=Yearend balance/divisor).  Q used 11.9 which results in a much larger indicated withdrawal.

kayver

Quicken Premier 2018 R6.12 and seeing the same problem with incorrect RMDs. I did a little digging into tax history and learned that things changed in 2002.
In 2001 the table for IRA owners was
70 26.2
71 25.3
72 24.4 etc.
The Single Life Expectancy table for beneficiaries was
70 16.0
71 15.3
72 14.6 etc.
In 2002 Single Life Table was updated
70 17.0
71 16.3
72 15.5 etc.
According to my calculations, Quicken appears to be using the Single Life Table to calculate RMDs.
70 17.0
71 16.3
72 15.5 etc.
But it's supposed to be used only for inherited retirement accounts.

The Uniform Lifetime Table is supposed to be used by IRA owners regardless of the age of the beneficiary or even no beneficiary.
70 27.4
71 26.5 
72 25.6 etc.

This is a little disconcerting. I've been a longtime fan of the Lifetime Planner.

mshiggins

kayver said:

Quicken Premier 2018 R6.12 and seeing the same problem with incorrect RMDs. I did a little digging into tax history and learned that things changed in 2002.
In 2001 the table for IRA owners was
70 26.2
71 25.3
72 24.4 etc.
The Single Life Expectancy table for beneficiaries was
70 16.0
71 15.3
72 14.6 etc.
In 2002 Single Life Table was updated
70 17.0
71 16.3
72 15.5 etc.
According to my calculations, Quicken appears to be using the Single Life Table to calculate RMDs.
70 17.0
71 16.3
72 15.5 etc.
But it's supposed to be used only for inherited retirement accounts.

The Uniform Lifetime Table is supposed to be used by IRA owners regardless of the age of the beneficiary or even no beneficiary.
70 27.4
71 26.5 
72 25.6 etc.

This is a little disconcerting. I've been a longtime fan of the Lifetime Planner.

Nice sleuthing!