Delete Expired Option Trades (12 Legacy Votes)

Quicken Community
Quicken Community Employee mod
edited June 2020 in Investments (Windows)
I'm not sure if this is an idea or a problem.  I trade options.  After they expire there is no way to remove them without removing the trades.  Right now I hide them but my backup files are over 100 meg and growing.  There is no value in keeping an old trade but I do need to keep the income generated from the trade.  I now have several thousand transactions that add no value.  I would like to see these transactions handled like banking transactions when making a year-end-copy.   Is this a new feature or am I missing an obvious solution?  
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  • K.O. (Win-Premier)
    K.O. (Win-Premier) SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    I too trade options (a lot).  Using QWin 2017 Premier my data file is over 200MB and my backups are 1MB.  I have over 3,600 securities.  While its debatable the value of keeping transactions around (even for options) you are correct that there is no way to remove the security (option) without removing the transaction.  I just hide the expired options in the securities list.

    So to answer your question, you are not missing an obvious solution and the above is just to share info.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited January 2019
    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  
  • K.O. (Win-Premier)
    K.O. (Win-Premier) SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Omar said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  

    I haven't had any "unidentified security" issues that I can remember.  What broker are you downloading from?  Have you run a check on the data file?
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited January 2017
    Omar said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  

    Fidelity on both computers.  Similar trades, identical options.  OK on one, Unidentified on the other.  The one with Unidentified also defaults to bond sell rather than sell on the download.  Yes, I have run verify on the files - no errors.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited February 2017
    Omar said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  

    Once I saw my Security list starting to grow I said no way.
    Now I have Generic Option securities.
    Put 1mo Option.
    Put 2mo Option.
    Call 2wk Write.
    Call 3wk Write.
    etc.
    I keep reusing them. I put the actual option details in the memo field. Often but not always since I haven't seen any need to keep that info anyway.
  • K.O. (Win-Premier)
    K.O. (Win-Premier) SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    Omar said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  

    Sorry for the delay Omar.  I have never used Fidelity so the issue may reside on their end but it does sound funny since you're getting different results on different computers.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited November 2017
    Omar said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  

    I have the same problem on my TDAmeritrade account, I can't get rid of the expired options.   Has anybody figured out a trick, my list in my holdings just keeps getting bigger and bigger?
  • jr7107
    jr7107 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2017
    Omar said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  

    The options in the security list have transactions against them, and until those are deleted or recreated under a generic option like @fanfare noted above, you won't be able to remove them.

    You can create a generic option security in your Security list and apply similar transactions to it over the course of time. As and example, you are trading AAPL 170 Dec 17 CALL and that is showing up in your security list with a buy/sell.

    Create a security (name however you like) example "AAPL Long CALL Position" and recreate those transactions there and delete AAPL 170 DEC 17 CALL. And after you close out that position, the next time you complete a similar transaction you could "Match to Existing Security" and then the broker would price for you as well as reconcile the position.

    These are all suggestions that I use and they work for how I trade. Test it out first and see if it suits your need.
    Quicken user since 1994.
    Quicken Forum/Community Contributor since 2005.
  • Anthony Fitzgerald
    Anthony Fitzgerald Member
    edited January 2018
    Omar said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  

    cant you just buy an option then remove it if held until maturity.
    Short sales are easily covered with tax lots easily matched
    I do spreads and buy/writes 
  • jr7107
    jr7107 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Omar said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  

    Not if it has transactions in Quicken. It will still reside in the Security List and have a history. You would need to delete the transactions before removing the security.
    Quicken user since 1994.
    Quicken Forum/Community Contributor since 2005.
  • Anthony Fitzgerald
    Anthony Fitzgerald Member
    edited January 2018
    Omar said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  

    Why do you need to remove the security from the list?
    How do you keep track and manage basis vand performance
  • jr7107
    jr7107 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Omar said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  

    I don't remove securities from the list, that was a response to "can't you just buy option then remove it if held until maturity" query. I use a generic representative security (and reuse that same security) for trades.

    The entire thread above describes the issue where option contracts can start piling up in the Security list irrespective of strategy employed by a Quicken user. The temporary nature of the security can be handled with the methods described above and track the accounting and performance. I will not comment on specific handling of options basis, impact on stock assignments and tax, I leave those calculations for outside of Q.
    Quicken user since 1994.
    Quicken Forum/Community Contributor since 2005.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited January 2018
    Omar said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  

    I agree, I don't want to just delete the option from Quicken after it expires because it than also deletes the purchase date.   Even worse, it makes it impossible to use Quicken for doing my taxes and just downloading, without going in and manually adjusting.    And I buy a lot of options, so my Quicken security list has now become unusable.   I've called the Quicken help desk about his a couple of times,, but they don't understand the problem.    
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited December 2018
    I don't think Quicken will do anything about this "problem" until someone in management starts trading options.  I agree with Bill that they don't understand the problem and, evidently, there aren't enough option traders to make a significant difference to their bottom line.  I would be more than happy to share my frustration with the existing system with any Quicken employee interested in improving their product.
  • jr7107
    jr7107 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Omar said:

    Thanks for the fast response.

    My concern with the large backup results from travelling.  I've had to restore from backup a couple of times on the road and it can become expensive.   

    Have you had problems getting "Unidentified Security" on the down loads.  I manage multiple accounts and on one computer I get the correct security/option and on the other all downloads are "Unidentified Security".  (Same options, same brokerage)  It's like there's an init file on the one computer has been corrupted.  

    The only way I have found to mitigate the list piling up was by reusing the same vehicle. And I don't see that changing, frequent traders are not the primary market for Q functionality in investments.

    For taxes I use third party software. I use Q to balance the trades and cash for accurate portfolio presentation. I use the software where primary function/specialty is what they do. Option trading and taxes are not Q's specialty.

    The software can be "worked around". I suggest attempting a reusable position and see if you can work with it.
    Quicken user since 1994.
    Quicken Forum/Community Contributor since 2005.
  • jr7107
    jr7107 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    Agree. There won't be a software solution. And they don't understand the temporary nature of the option or the impact on the user experience of a large security list. You need to work around if you want to use it to track trades and limit the list size.
    Quicken user since 1994.
    Quicken Forum/Community Contributor since 2005.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited January 2018
    You are correct - it is a pain but it is possible to uncheck the "Matched to Downloaded Security" on the wrong security and then rematch it to the correct one.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited July 2018
    Quicken does not handle the posting of stock option securities and trades very well.  Here are enhancement requests for better handling this type of security for users that trade options:

    1. Add a Buy-Sell transaction screen where the purchase and the sale of an option (or possibly other type of securities) can be handled in one transaction.  Options are typically bought and sold in very short time frames (often in matter of hours or minutes), so having to enter the buys and sells separately is a pain.

    2. Do not require the symbol lookup process for option symbols, which can be specified in a variety of ways (e.g., "AMZN Feb 23 2018 1480.00 Put", "AMZN180223P1480", etc.).  Verifying the symbol has little to no value for options; due to their their short-term nature, Quicken would not typically be used to reprice them or obtain related information.   You could provide a checkbox to skip the lookup process.

    3. Automatically hide option symbols.  For an active option trader there are a lot of trades, and having to hide all of the symbols in order to focus on stocks or other longer-term investments is a pain.

    4. A bonus enhancement would be to allow the entry of "contracts" rather than "shares", as options are typically priced in terms of contracts (100 share lots).  This enhancement would be nice but less necessary.
  • K.O. (Win-Premier)
    K.O. (Win-Premier) SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Hi Richard.  I trade a lot of options and have made some options-related suggestions to Quicken before.  A couple comments/questions based on your suggestions.

    1. When you're talking multiple securities in 1 transaction are you talking about opening or closing trades (e.g. opening an iron condor - 4 legs) in one transaction or are you talking about the open and closing trade (e.g. BTO and STC) in one transaction.  Even if this was implemented I guess I don't see what the time savings would be over entering multiple transactions via the register because even if there were a way to enter multiple legs at one time you would still have to enter all data for each leg (action, date (which could default to the same date) security/symbol, price, quantity, commission, etc) as for tax purposes each leg is a separate taxable transaction even if though some brokerages will "show" multi-leg transactions as 1 transaction in their trading platform.

    2. I think this is kind of already present.  Just click the Add Security Manually link (at the bottom of the window - the name may not be exactly this as I'm doing this from memory) and it won't go through the lookup.  I always set up options manually.

    3.  I've made the same suggestion using expiration date as the trigger to ask the user if they want to hide options past expiration date.  I don't think it makes sense to automatically hide them without querying the user because sometimes transactions aren't entered until the day after they expire and if they're automatically hidden the transaction entry is more cumbersome.

    4. Challenge here is "typically" as some contracts are not 100 shares so Quicken would need to track the contract specs for all securities or provide some kind of default/override to implement this so I'm not sure it would be a huge benefit.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited June 2018
    I too regularly trade options.  For me the most annoying thing is dealing with the menu box that makes me choose which option I mean when buying to close a call or selling to close a put, etc.  I haven't given it a lot of thought - yet - but I think Quicken could do better.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited March 2018

    Hi Richard.  I trade a lot of options and have made some options-related suggestions to Quicken before.  A couple comments/questions based on your suggestions.

    1. When you're talking multiple securities in 1 transaction are you talking about opening or closing trades (e.g. opening an iron condor - 4 legs) in one transaction or are you talking about the open and closing trade (e.g. BTO and STC) in one transaction.  Even if this was implemented I guess I don't see what the time savings would be over entering multiple transactions via the register because even if there were a way to enter multiple legs at one time you would still have to enter all data for each leg (action, date (which could default to the same date) security/symbol, price, quantity, commission, etc) as for tax purposes each leg is a separate taxable transaction even if though some brokerages will "show" multi-leg transactions as 1 transaction in their trading platform.

    2. I think this is kind of already present.  Just click the Add Security Manually link (at the bottom of the window - the name may not be exactly this as I'm doing this from memory) and it won't go through the lookup.  I always set up options manually.

    3.  I've made the same suggestion using expiration date as the trigger to ask the user if they want to hide options past expiration date.  I don't think it makes sense to automatically hide them without querying the user because sometimes transactions aren't entered until the day after they expire and if they're automatically hidden the transaction entry is more cumbersome.

    4. Challenge here is "typically" as some contracts are not 100 shares so Quicken would need to track the contract specs for all securities or provide some kind of default/override to implement this so I'm not sure it would be a huge benefit.

    Regarding response #1 - most, if not all, of my option trades are simple buy-to-open and sell-to-close, and I suspect many other option traders do the same.  I don't do "butterfly" or other more complex patterns, so a buy-sell screen makes sense.

    Regarding response #2 - even clicking "add security manually" makes you go through several screens.  The point is I don't want to bother with looking up this type of security at all.  The only reason to retain the symbol is for security transaction reports, and year-end profit-loss information.

    Regarding response #3 - if I have a method of indicating that the lookup of a security should be skipped, then that security can be automatically hidden.

    Regarding response #4 - adding a contract entry option is not very important, so that can be ignored.
  • K.O. (Win-Premier)
    K.O. (Win-Premier) SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    Kayo said:

    I too regularly trade options.  For me the most annoying thing is dealing with the menu box that makes me choose which option I mean when buying to close a call or selling to close a put, etc.  I haven't given it a lot of thought - yet - but I think Quicken could do better.

    Are you on Win2018?  If you are on 2017 or before note that the search box for securities in 2018 is revised and greatly improved.  You type in and it will search the symbol and name at the same time and it doesn't just search on the first character.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited May 2018
    A buy-sell screen like I suggested would address that issue.  That and being able to completely skip the security lookup-related screens.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited May 2018
    Yes - I am using Quicken 2018, and all of the point I made apply to that version as well as previous versions.
  • K.O. (Win-Premier)
    K.O. (Win-Premier) SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2018

    A buy-sell screen like I suggested would address that issue.  That and being able to completely skip the security lookup-related screens.

    How would a buy/sell transaction on the same screen not require a lookup?  You still need to buy and sell the same security so Quicken would need ensure they are the same.

    It sounds like what you are really looking for is a way to enter a transaction for a security that is not in the security list at all so that you can call it whatever you want and it bypasses edit checks. So the security field would be take anything regardless of if it is in the security list or not. 

    Doesn't sound unreasonable but would come with the potential for many challenges in reporting and transaction entry as no edit checks on securities would like lead to lots of people entering securities that don't match prior transactions and unintended short sales and lots open positions that are stragglers. Some individuals like yourself might have no problems but I'm sure that most users would encounter lots of problems.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited March 2018

    A buy-sell screen like I suggested would address that issue.  That and being able to completely skip the security lookup-related screens.

    If the buy and sell are done in the same transaction screen, the security would have to be the same because you would only enter the symbol once.  

    It needs to be added to the security list for later reporting, but automatically hidden so that all of those symbols don't clutter up the list, because I don't want to see them.
  • DC A
    DC A Member
    edited March 2018
    I like #2 especially since a price look-up for options is not likely to happen.  I spend a lot of time dismissing the dialogue box.

    If options were treated as options it would be possible to get 5) reports based on option trading without having to manually select the securities.

    Even more important for tax purposes is to be able 6) to associate an option with the underlying security.  (I recognize that most here are likely US and I do not speak for US tax law but in Canada profits and losses from option trading can be applied against the cost base of a security held or disposed of during the tax year.)
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited May 2018
    Interesting feedback.  Another issue for Quicken then becomes using a standard way of specifying option symbols so that they can be interpreted and linked to the associated stocks.

    The standard symbology for options is <symbol><date><put/call><strike> (e.g., "AAPL180316C180") so perhaps Quicken could be enhanced to accept and interpret that format.
  • K.O. (Win-Premier)
    K.O. (Win-Premier) SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018

    Interesting feedback.  Another issue for Quicken then becomes using a standard way of specifying option symbols so that they can be interpreted and linked to the associated stocks.

    The standard symbology for options is <symbol><date><put/call><strike> (e.g., "AAPL180316C180") so perhaps Quicken could be enhanced to accept and interpret that format.

    Quicken does use the standard OCC option format (similar to what you have specified although you're missing some padding in the base and price components).  And if the option is stored using this format Quicken should be able to look up prices.  That said, not all brokerages (TD Ameritrade for 1) send transactions over using this format.  TDA sends them using a different format for the symbol which causes problems if you trade the same option in 2 different brokerages as you'll have duplicate options in Quicken for the same actual option traded.
  • Unknown
    Unknown Member
    edited March 2018
    Kayo said:

    I too regularly trade options.  For me the most annoying thing is dealing with the menu box that makes me choose which option I mean when buying to close a call or selling to close a put, etc.  I haven't given it a lot of thought - yet - but I think Quicken could do better.

    I am on 2017.  Good to know!
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