Incorrect balance calculation still causes large errors in reports

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Comments

  • Rich Cook
    Rich Cook Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Rich Cook said:

    Thanks for all the answers.  I have tried all of them so far and there is still a huge discrepancy.  The difference lies in my investment account.  As @John Burgess said above, regardless of why, why is it my job to hunt through the interface to see how too different definitions of "net worth" can possibly make sense in one piece of personal finance software?  

    No, the securities and prices I have are all downloaded from my brokerage and reflect the current state of my holdings accurately.  Quicken just doesn't add them up correctly and then uses different incompatible ledgers in different parts of its model apparently.  
  • jacobs
    jacobs SuperUser, Mac Beta Beta
    edited July 2018
    Rich Cook said:

    Thanks for all the answers.  I have tried all of them so far and there is still a huge discrepancy.  The difference lies in my investment account.  As @John Burgess said above, regardless of why, why is it my job to hunt through the interface to see how too different definitions of "net worth" can possibly make sense in one piece of personal finance software?  

    Rich, now you're saying Quicken doesn't add up your security values correctly, which is different than what I think you've said previously in this thread.

    So just to be clear: if you open your brokerage account, in the portfolio view, with the date in the upper right set to July 31, and you set the Portfolio Value dropdown menu to Group by Security, you get a list of each security in that brokerage account and in the Value column, its value on July 31. And you're saying that if you manually add up the values in that column, (including the cash balance at the bottom, if any) they do not add up to the value for your brokerage account at the top of that screen and in the left sidebar? Or are they the same number?

    Next, open the Net Worth Over Time report and click on the triangle next to the Investments line if it is collapsed, so that you can see Brokerage and Retirement underneath. Click the triangle next to Brokerage to open up all your non-retirement accounts, one of which is the brokerage account you're referring to. In the July 2018 column for that one account, is the value in this report different from the one you/Quicken tallied up above when you had the brokerage account open?

    What I'm trying to get you to dive into and clarify is whether this one account is showing a different value in these two places: the Net Worth report and the same one account's portfolio view.
    Quicken Mac Subscription • Quicken user since 1993
  • Rich Cook
    Rich Cook Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Rich Cook said:

    Thanks for all the answers.  I have tried all of them so far and there is still a huge discrepancy.  The difference lies in my investment account.  As @John Burgess said above, regardless of why, why is it my job to hunt through the interface to see how too different definitions of "net worth" can possibly make sense in one piece of personal finance software?  

    I'm not saying anything different than I've said before.  You asked a new question and I answered it.  Let's keep this simple. There are two different values shown for my net worth. 
    That should never happen, unless they are claiming to report different net worths at different times or for a different set of accounts or something like that, which is not the case. 
    In addition, now you know another fact, which is going to just muddy the waters here and deserves and has its own thread elsewhere.  It turns out that the value for my brokerage account is not correct because of a different bug where Quicken cannot handle stock options and puts weird values in there for their worth.  
    But to answer your question:  Yes,  the value for my brokerage account in the July 2018 column of the Net Worth report is different than the value for the same account in the Accounts column of the window on the left.  That's a bug. 
    By the way, neither value reflects the true value at the brokerage.  That's another bug.  Bugs on top of bugs.  Lovely!
  • jacobs
    jacobs SuperUser, Mac Beta Beta
    edited August 2018
    Rich Cook said:

    Thanks for all the answers.  I have tried all of them so far and there is still a huge discrepancy.  The difference lies in my investment account.  As @John Burgess said above, regardless of why, why is it my job to hunt through the interface to see how too different definitions of "net worth" can possibly make sense in one piece of personal finance software?  

    Rich, I'm going to bow out of this conversation now. You say "There are two different values shown for my net worth; that should never happen." I believe that's an incorrect statement, because I and others have pointed out that there are potentially multiple user-set parameters and settings which could properly lead to such results, and each time your answer is that it's a bug.

    Please understand that I'm not arguing that it's not a bug; I've only been trying to help identify the source of the discrepancy, which makes it a more reportable, more-actionable issue if it is indeed a bug.

    Above, you state again that the Net Worth report and register show different values, which you've said multiple times before. I asked you to look at it a level deeper, but you've again just said the totals are off so it's a bug. You did add the useful additional nugget that your brokerage account total isn't accurate, and that stock options are the culprit. (I'm not sure whether you're talking exchange traded options or employee stock options, but as you say that issue is probably best in its own thread, and it's an area I don't have enough knowledge about to weigh in on.) If you know the data is wrong in one place, and all these calculations and views of your data do indeed use the same data, I'd focus on that issue first.

    ---

    Here's my parting advice to you before I sign off... First, understand that most people are not experiencing the issue you're describing with different net worth values in different places, so there's not a broad-based bug everyone experiences or can replicate. That doesn't mean there's not an issue, but it does mean you need to do more to get to the bottom of it if you want Quicken to change/fix something in the program. Then, know that discussing it here in this forum is unlikely to result in action on Quicken's part; this is not their official support channel, and the developers are not reading every thread and comment.

    I would narrow the issue(s) down as much as I could and then call Quicken phone support. They have the ability to share your screen so they see what you're seeing and can work with you to adjust settings or examine transactions to figure out what's going on. Realistically, I would put the odds of success on a first try with phone support at no better than 50/50, because it's a complicated problem, and not all support agents are going to successfully deal with a problem at this level. So I'd be prepared to give it a second try if the first one doesn't work. I'd advise being open to trying anything the support agents want to try, even if you think it's bone-headed or off-the-mark, because your goal is to rule out anything that can be explained away in order to lead the support representative to the conclusion that there's an apparent bug that needs to be passed to higher-level support or directly to the developers.

    And yes, I know what I'm describing is taking extra work and time on yourself; unfortunately, you have to invest some effort in demonstrating the problem if you want it to be fixed. If you'd rather just continue to post about it here, have at it, but know that it isn't likely to lead to a satisfying conclusion because your fellow users here can't see your data and can only take guesses at things that may not resolve anything. And if you're right that there's a bug, then getting in front of Quicken Support is paramount, because there's no bug that can be fixed by discussion in a user forum.
    Best wishes in getting this issue fixed, and report back if you have any success.
    Quicken Mac Subscription • Quicken user since 1993
  • Rich Cook
    Rich Cook Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Rich Cook said:

    Thanks for all the answers.  I have tried all of them so far and there is still a huge discrepancy.  The difference lies in my investment account.  As @John Burgess said above, regardless of why, why is it my job to hunt through the interface to see how too different definitions of "net worth" can possibly make sense in one piece of personal finance software?  

    Thanks, that's good advice, especially with respect to dealing with support agents.  I don't know how you know how many people are experiencing this bug, nor how you know that most are not, but it sounds like you are not so good for you!  :-)   I guess I'll run it by Quicken support again.  I've pretty clearly demonstrated my problem here I think and any further digging on your part is highly unlikely to result in anything getting fixed, unless you work for Quicken, which is why I resist going down that road with you.  
    Thanks for your help.  
  • Bill
    Bill Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Rich Cook said:

    Thanks for all the answers.  I have tried all of them so far and there is still a huge discrepancy.  The difference lies in my investment account.  As @John Burgess said above, regardless of why, why is it my job to hunt through the interface to see how too different definitions of "net worth" can possibly make sense in one piece of personal finance software?  

    I am experiencing the same problem with month-end net worth reports not matching the left column amount for one investment account. However, by the time I prepare the next month's net worth report, the previous months value is corrected for that account. So it would clearly appear too be date related, but still doesn't excuse the discrepancy.
  • Quicken Marcus
    Quicken Marcus Employee ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Rich Cook said:

    Thanks for all the answers.  I have tried all of them so far and there is still a huge discrepancy.  The difference lies in my investment account.  As @John Burgess said above, regardless of why, why is it my job to hunt through the interface to see how too different definitions of "net worth" can possibly make sense in one piece of personal finance software?  

    Rich and Bill, I'm sorry you're running into these issues.  As many posters have stated, you shouldn't have to debug issues you're finding but the reality is if you want them fixed we need details to be able to reproduce the issue.  If we can't see the problem, we can't fix it. 

    Your point about having Options might be a clue.  As I'm sure you know, Quicken Mac doesn't handle Options very well.  We're now starting to make improvements in 2018 but that probably hasn't affected your account yet.  Bill do you also have Options? 

    As many posters have stated, the sidebar uses a different time frame than the report since the sidebar looks at today and the report is looking at monthly intervals so they may or may not be the same and this is by design.  The other issue is that the sidebar now converts foreign currencies into your home currency but the reports are still single currency which could also result in differences.  Bill, it sounds like things normalize for you over time.  The issue you could be encountering is that the brokerages send Quicken data in different batches.  Sometimes they will send us an updated balance but not include the transactions that make up that balance.  Therefore on a particular day, the balances may be off but are then corrected the following day when the transactions are downloaded.  With 14,500 financial institutions sending different data with some not following the agreed to spec, Quicken may or may not handle the data the same way.  This is why people have different experiences and quality of data.  

    In any case, the more detail you can provide the better.  If you'd be willing to share your files with us, we probably could find the issue faster.  I'll email you both directly.
  • RickO
    RickO SuperUser, Mac Beta Beta
    edited August 2018
    Rich Cook said:

    Thanks for all the answers.  I have tried all of them so far and there is still a huge discrepancy.  The difference lies in my investment account.  As @John Burgess said above, regardless of why, why is it my job to hunt through the interface to see how too different definitions of "net worth" can possibly make sense in one piece of personal finance software?  

    Marcus, thanks for jumping in on this.

    Rich and Bill, please post back the resolution for those of us watching with curiosity.
    Quicken Mac Subscription; Quicken Mac user since the early 90s
  • Rich Cook
    Rich Cook Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Rich Cook said:

    Thanks for all the answers.  I have tried all of them so far and there is still a huge discrepancy.  The difference lies in my investment account.  As @John Burgess said above, regardless of why, why is it my job to hunt through the interface to see how too different definitions of "net worth" can possibly make sense in one piece of personal finance software?  

    Thanks @Quicken Marcus for your help and for your private email to me.  @Rick0, When we find a resolution I'll let the forum know.  The process has started (again) and I hope to find a resolution this time!  Yay!  
  • Bill
    Bill Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Rich Cook said:

    Thanks for all the answers.  I have tried all of them so far and there is still a huge discrepancy.  The difference lies in my investment account.  As @John Burgess said above, regardless of why, why is it my job to hunt through the interface to see how too different definitions of "net worth" can possibly make sense in one piece of personal finance software?  

    I also heard from @Quicken Marcus via email. He left on vacation yesterday so I expect to resume troubleshooting with him in a week or so. Replying to Marcus's specific question, I do not have options.
  • goodvonlehman
    goodvonlehman Member
    edited August 2019
     My net worth statement is $50 million+ more than the account statement on the left side of the screen. This IS NOT a user error. If I look at the pro folio view, it matches the left column. Only the Net Worth statement varies. How can I fix this issue?
  • dnfinance
    dnfinance Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 2019
    ---------------------------------------Ignore Original Post------------------------------------

    -----------------Resolution Described at the bottom if you are interested---------------

    Quicken Windows R21.16. @Quicken Marcus, I realize I am posting to a Mac thread. Just hoping to provide information that indicates a possible "bug" that is common to both operating system Quicken versions.

    The Net Worth reports and graphs display account balances that include cash, which was withdrawn from an investment account. I observed this after withdrawing cash and the Net Worth report continued to show the balance as if the cash amount is still in the investment account. The withdrawal date is 10 days prior to the observed reports and graphs. The Portfolio Report includes the cash just like the Net Worth report and graphs.

    I read the comments that explain certain reports and graphs use end of month balances versus the current balances that are displayed on the sidebar. The Net Worth and Portfolio report dates are set for today's date, which indicates to me that the Net Worth and Portfolio reports will display today's balances. I have a number of accounts and the balances for all but the one with the cash withdrawal tie to today's balances as displayed in the sidebar.

    I have performed a file validation, cleared the transaction ("c") and reconciled the cash balance in the account (transactions marked "R"), none of which changed the reported Net Worth.

    -------------------Resolution: I found the problem that caused the observed results. At the time I sold a money market fund to create cash that could be withdrawn, the money market fund was a hidden security. Simply unhiding the money market security did not cause the correct balance to be displayed. After unhiding the security I deleted and reentered the "sold" transaction, which caused the Net Worth reports to recognize the sale.

    I'll just quietly be on my way now................
  • KenP
    KenP Member
    I’ve been struggling with this for quite a while.

    I have big discrepancies in the net worth of all my investment accounts and in none in my cash accounts. Zero balance investment accounts show non-zero account balances in the net worth report forever after the account is zeroed. The value carried forward appears to be the sum of all the entries in the “Cash+Invest” column of the register report.

    This algorithm requires you manage cost basis very carefully (no adjustments to correct balances) and even then may still retain capital gains/losses after assets have been liquidated.

    The Account Balances report is a good substitute for the Net Worth report, and it can also show a graph of how it has changed over time. It does what I need, but unfortunately can’t be added to the Home tab.
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