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Issues renaming two securities during different mergers - RAYTHEON & ALIANZ FDS

System
System Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 25 in Investing (Windows)
This discussion was created from comments split from: Renaming a security.

Comments

  • KIRBYPM
    KIRBYPM Member
    When I try to edit a security name to match the correct name, I get this message: "You already have security with that name. If you are trying to enter a transaction for this security, try Record Transaction from an investment account. Otherwise, enter a different name". I have dozens of transactions with the correct security name and dozens with the incorrect name. Do I have to edit the incorrect transactions one at a time?
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do I have to edit the incorrect transactions one at a time?
    Yes.  I assume your first sentience was in the context of editing security details.  That would be Quicken saying you can't have two securities with the same name.  
  • Wayne Cole
    Wayne Cole Member ✭✭
    I have multiple misnamed securities and constant prompts regarding mismatches with downloaded accounts that are either bogus or the result of Quicken's inability to properly handle name changes and / or mergers / exchanges.

    1. SIMPLE NAME CHANGE (the ticker symbol, number of shares and share price remain the same): Example: AZNAX previously identified by Quicken as "ALIANZ FDS" was renamed to "VIRTUS INVT ALLIANZ CL A" for the account in questoin. You can't "edit" the security name in the securities list. You can't "Add Security" because you have to supply a ticker symbol instead of a name. Quicken then looks up the new name, acts like it has added the security to the list with the new name, but does not actually make any change to the securities list. Now every time the account downloads it reports a security balance mis-match since it does not recognize the new name of the security. There appears to be no way to fix this since the ticker symbol did not change and Quicken will not allow a name change for a ticker existing in your security list.

    1. NAME AND SYMBOL CHANGE as in a merger or exchange (One security ceases to exist as a result of conversion to a new security name, symbol, share balance and share price equivalent.) EXAMPLE: "RAYTHEON CO COM NEW" became "Raytheon Technologies Corp" in a merger with United Technologies. Symbol changed from RTN to RTX and share balance changed with small amount of cash for fractional share difference in the exchange. I tried all the remedies espoused in these fora to fix up the way Quicken recorded the transaction, but to this day each time I download the account Quicken tells me I still own the number of RTN shares that were turned into a different number of RTX shares, in spite of having fixed that share balance from the accounts "Holdings" pane.

    It seems like problem 1 should not be difficult - why can't I rename a stock as of a certain date? Seems simple enough. I mean there are lots of different software apps that can keep track of a person who, for example gets married and changes their last name, but all other data remains the same. Why should that be so difficult.

    As for problem 2, it appears Quicken was created only with buy, sell, deposit, withdrawal transactions. Exchanges and mergers when everything about a stock changes aren't exactly equivalent to a combination of those transactions in the various brokerage firms journalling practices, and therefore Quicken doesn't seem to properly recognize them and "sort" them into the series of their simpler transaction that will not raise "mismatch" flags every time the account is downloaded.

    It would be great if these bugs could be fixed.
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Wayne Cole
    You can't "edit" the security name in the securities list. 
    I can.  You haven't indicated what happens when you try it.  There is also a Enter Transactions optional action for a Corporate Name Change.  
    You can't "Add Security" because you have to supply a ticker symbol instead of a name. 
    You do not have to use a ticker symbol.  There is an option at the bottom of the Add Security window to do so manually.  On that path if you are trying to duplicate the ticker, you must first create the security without the ticker, then edit the new security providing the duplicate ticker.  OR You can remove the ticker from the older name (I prefer to change it to something like 'AZNAX(old)'), then Add the new named security with the prior ticker.  
    There appears to be no way to fix this since the ticker symbol did not change and Quicken will not allow a name change for a ticker existing in your security list.
    FALSE.
    NAME AND SYMBOL CHANGE  ... 
    You apparently found the discussion about your example (Raytheon).  I believe those are rather complete discussions.  It further sounds like you have securities mis-matched.  [Security Details includes a checkbox indicating if the Quicken security is matched with an online security.]  The general fix to that problem is to unmatch securities (uncheck the box), and then rematch them correctly with the next download (other paths to the rematch also possible).  
    It seems like problem 1 should not be difficult - why can't I rename a stock as of a certain date
    That is a different question (emphasis added) and you are correct that one security cannot have different names applicable at different times.  But to do so would not simple as I see it or within the longstanding structure of Quicken's database.  But you can have two separate securities that share the same ticker and thus share the same price history information.  Only one of those can be matched to the security information from your brokerages.  
    As for problem 2, it appears Quicken was created only with buy, sell, deposit, withdrawal transactions. 
    FALSE.  ADD Share and REMOVE Share transactions provide significant tools.  There are 'Wizards" (macro-transactions) for Corporate Acquisitions (mergers) and Corporate Spinoffs that make use of the basic transaction tools.  The real problem is that financial institutions cannot or do not make proper use of those complete tools.  Further users trust (unwisely) that their financial institutions' downloads are complete and correct when they are not.  They then blame Quicken when Quicken is only using information supplied by others and cannot know it is incomplete or incorrect.   

    It would be great if these bugs could be fixed.
    You haven't identified any bugs to correct. 

    If you'd like to post specific questions about mismatched securities, I encourage you to start such specific questions as new posts.  It helps to be specific about securities as you have with Raytheon and AZNAX, to be clear about what version and release of Quicken you are using, and to be clear about the specific issue you are having (name matching, merger, spinoff, ticker change, etc.)
  • Ps56k2
    Ps56k2 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24
    I have no problem with editing and changing any of my holdings in the Security List.  In fact, I usually edit/change the "name" as it is really just text, compared to matching the online Ticker Symbol - for my public stocks and mutual funds.
    Of course if there is a Spin-off, merger, acqusition, or other corp action,
    then your Quicken should reflect the real world changes.... with the appropriate Quicken transactions as of that point in time.
    So... not sure what you are seeing or attempting -

    Quicken 2020 Deluxe - Subscription - Windows 10
  • Ps56k2
    Ps56k2 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    As a test, I tried to rename my Boeing stock symbol to ---> Amazon -
    and yes.... did receive this error message....
    BUT - why would I want to do that ?
    I had no problem renaming my Boeing stock symbol to "Amazon test" or "Amazon2" just not the exact same as the existing "Amazon"


    Quicken 2020 Deluxe - Subscription - Windows 10
  • Wayne Cole
    Wayne Cole Member ✭✭
    Yes, I can change names in the security list but this doesn't solve the problems:

    1. RAYTHEON Issue: The "Security List" shows the following entries that are probably the reason that every download pops up the alert for the securities mis-match.
    a) "RAYTHEON CO COM NEW *EXCHANGED FOR 2.3348 SHARES OF CUSIP 75513E101*". This is correct as the CUSIP for RTN (the stock that disappeared in the merger) was 755111507. However, it lists both the "Symbol" and "CUSIP ID" for the same security as "755111507". This error is probably the root of the problem. NOTE: This is not an entry I made. It appears to have been automatically made by Quicken at the time of the merger / exchange.
    b) "RAYTHEON CO COM NEW". This line shows the correct "Symbol", RTN and "CUSIP ID" of 75513E101 which is incorrect. RTN had the CUSIP "755111507", and the "...E101" is the CUSIP for RTX, the stock created in the exchange.
    c) "Raytheon Technologies Corp" (the new post-merger stock) with "Symbol" RTX (correct) and "CUSIP ID" blank (which should be 75513E101).

    I believe the last entry was one I created in one of the described fixes for the inability of Quicken to deal with the stock exchange merger of Raytheon and United technologies. In any event, every transaction involving RTX (Raytheon Technologies Corp) like dividend payments etc. is recorded as RAYTHEON CO COM NEW.

    I can go in and manually change them every time a new transaction is downloaded for RTX, but that gets to be a PITA after a while, and I STILL get the message that I own the original number of RTN shares and no RTX shares (securities mismatch alert) every time I do an account download with new transactions to "accept".

    It appears to me that the issue arises because Quicken didn't deal with the "CUSIP ID"-to-"Symbol"-to-"Security" (name) correctly when it made the auto-entry - b) above - in the securities list.

    Since there is no way to edit or enter "CUSIP ID" in Quicken, there appears to be no way to fix the problem, and/or my security list entry - c) above - for the correct RTX symbol will never be processed for the RTX transactions downloaded by Quicken. IOW, Quicken seems to use CUSIP as the key in downloaded transactions and since it screwed up the correspondence with the proper symbol and name [b) above], there is no permanent fix for the problem.

    2. ALIANZ FDS issue: Neither the "CUSIP ID" nor the "Symbol" changed, only the name. So when the account download shows changes to be "accepted" it also posts the alert that there is a securities mis-match. (It claims I have 0 shares of the newly named fund.)

    So now I am completely confused as it appears in this instance, instead of processing by CUSIP, Quicken is giving priority to "Security" (name). So I do not see how to fix this while maintaining the name change history along with price history which will become necessary for tax purposes if / when I sell these securities.

    I believe Quicken is just a complex database application. If that is the case, these two issues might indicate duplicate one-to-one tables that use different primary keys for each security - one uses CUSIP which cannot be edited by users, and one uses security (name). For example, the download operation keys on CUSIP, but the "user query" or reporting function keys on security name, thus elevating a securities mismatch alert when a name changes. Perhaps the "fix" is a one-to-many table with CUSIP or symbol as the primary key that would allow multiple names with date-of-use so the appropriate name could be applied at the appropriate dated entries in the account histories.

    Anyway, it doesn't seem that either problem is solvable by simple renaming. What do I do with the b) Raytheon entry that has the CUSIP for the Symbol, info about the exchange in the name for the exchange (exchange rate) but correct CUSIP? And if I merely change the name of the ALIANZ to the VIRTUS, and I don't remember this name change when later trying to put together price history for tax purposes, I have a lot of manual look-up work to do for myself.
  • Ps56k2
    Ps56k2 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    [EDIT] - updated topic title to include the two mentioned companies to see if anyone else had the same Quicken issues
    Quicken 2020 Deluxe - Subscription - Windows 10
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    To repeat myself:
    It further sounds like you have securities mis-matched.  [Security Details includes a checkbox indicating if the Quicken security is matched with an online security.]  The general fix to that problem is to unmatch securities (uncheck the box), and then rematch them correctly with the next download (other paths to the rematch also possible).
    The CUSIP value gets set when a financial institution's download with that data gets matched to a specific security in your Quicken file.   I'll avoid trying to point fingers here.  
    a) "RAYTHEON CO COM NEW *EXCHANGED FOR 2.3348 SHARES OF CUSIP 75513E101*". This is correct as the CUSIP for RTN (the stock that disappeared in the merger) was 755111507. However, it lists both the "Symbol" and "CUSIP ID" for the same security as "755111507". 
    Your 1a Raytheon is matched to the original that no longer exists.  That can be unmatched and probably should be renamed (especially if you owned Raytheon prior), maybe to "Raytheon (Old)" or similar.
    b) "RAYTHEON CO COM NEW". This line shows the correct "Symbol", RTN and "CUSIP ID" of 75513E101 which is incorrect. RTN had the CUSIP "755111507", and the "...E101" is the CUSIP for RTX, the stock created in the exchange.      
    This 1b version appears to have the wrong ticker and appear to be unnecessary.  If there are no transactions associated with it, delete it.  
    c) "Raytheon Technologies Corp" (the new post-merger stock) with "Symbol" RTX (correct) and "CUSIP ID" blank (which should be 75513E101).
    Your 1c version appears to be the one you are using.  Once you delete the ib version that now has the ...E101 CUSIP, you should get the opportunity to match your FI download (what they show as ...E101) to this security. 

    Summary -- Rename 1a, delete 1b, match 1c, and these problems should be gone. 

    Allianz later, maybe
  • Wayne Cole
    Wayne Cole Member ✭✭
    Thanks for the advice.

    It occurred to me after posting that the RAYTHEON fix may be simply fixed as follows (which I am trying after backing up my file):

    1. a) Rename to "Raytheon Technologies Corp" (the merged stock) and change the ticker field from the CUSIP to the proper symbol, RTX. Then DELETE the 1. c) entry that has the blank CUSIP, as I think the way I got this entry in the securities list was manually adding it from the "Holdings" pane during one of my past attempts to fix the repeating "mismatch" alerts.

    (BTW "RTN" and "75513E101" are correct for the pre-merger stock (RAYTHEON CO COM NEW) while "RTX" and "755111507" is correct for the post-merger stock (Raytheon Technologies Corp).

    In order to delete a security there is a long process of editing / removing transactions for that security before you can delete it, so I followed that procedure, deleted the bogus entries and ran a one step update.

    I STILL get the message telling me I own shares of the defunct RTN stock and none of the replacement RTX stock, although the share numbers reflect the number of RTX shares I own. (See image.) I don't know how to resolve this so I don't keep getting this message.

    In the case of ALLIANZ, changing the name to "Virtus AllianzGI Income...." changed the name on all the transactions for ALLIANZ GI going back since it first appeared in Quicken. So I entered a comment in the "Virtus...." 'Edit Security->Other Info->Comments with the name change and date. I guess this will have to do. Anyway, there were no complaints when the containing account updated.

    I checked my "Holdings" for the affected accounts and all were correct as was the total value.

    So, now I just need to figure out how to deal with the pictured alert so Quicken will quit scaring the crap out of me each time I do an account download.
  • q_lurker
    q_lurker SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    (BTW "RTN" and "75513E101" are correct for the pre-merger stock (RAYTHEON CO COM NEW) while "RTX" and "755111507" is correct for the post-merger stock (Raytheon Technologies Corp).
    Maybe that is a factor in your overall issue.  From Raytheon Tech's website:
    What is Raytheon Technologies’ CUSIP number?
    Our CUSIP number for our common stock is 75513E101.

    75513E101 and RTX == Raytheon Technologies Corp - the new post merger entity


  • Wayne Cole
    Wayne Cole Member ✭✭
    edited March 1
    So it looks like Quicken messed up the name and symbol to CUSIP correspondence which I can't fix (since I can't edit CUSIPs). Oops - after posting I think I figured it out - see below.
  • Wayne Cole
    Wayne Cole Member ✭✭
    I think I FINALLY got it sorted. I went into the "Security List", printed the reports for RTX and RTN (fortunately a manageable number of transactions for each where 04/03/20 was the break-point for before (RTN) and after (RTX) with respective "Sold" and "Bought" transactions on that day.

    I carefully edited the names and changed the symbols to match the appropriate CUSIPs, then used the reports to edit each transaction, changing each to the correct symbol by the date as specified above. Now RAYTHEON CO COM NEW RTN 755111507 transactions end 04/03/20 and Raytheon Technologies Corp RTX 75513E101 transactions start 04/03/20.

    The only small detail left is to fix is that their price histories are merged for RTX but that doesn't really matter as the transaction dates, amounts etc. are correct. I did a one-step update, no mismatch alert, and checked the holdings / values with the account holder website and everything matches to the penny.

    Now, let's see if this holds through the next auto-update... (fingers crossed).

    Thanks for the help and keeping my aging brain on the right track.
  • Dean2
    Dean2 Member ✭✭
    The RTN/RTX problem continues. I got my holdings changed from RTN to RTX when the name change occurred. However after a download I get a mismatch report saying (correctly) that I have xxx shares of RTX in Quicken, but the brokerage reports that number of shares of RTN. I checked my brokerage statement and it shows only RTX shares. Somehow Quicken is misinterpreting the data from the brokerage. There are no new transactions involved here. It sounds like a Quicken problem.
  • Wayne Cole
    Wayne Cole Member ✭✭
    I believe FINALLY solved that problem with my account. It may be unique to my brokerage firm's reporting on the day of the exchange, but it would be worth a check.

    Looking at the "Tools->Security List", what I EVENTUALLY figured out was that Quicken recorded the transaction such that one of the Raytheon stocks no longer had a "Symbol". It had a CUSIP in both the "Symbol" and "CUSIP ID" fields. If you then click on the security in the "Security List" you can edit the "Symbol", but not the CUSIP.

    Now I don't remember how it happened (possibly my earlier attempts to sort things out by swapping names and symbols in the security list) but I found the CUSIP fields for each security reversed to what they should be (see my March 1 post in response to q-lurker's post of Feb 28). That is, RTX had RTN's CUSIP and vice-versa.

    The procedure to get them back to proper correspondence I had to first create the reports specified in "Help->Quicken Help F1 'To Delete a Security'" for both RTN and RTX entries in the "Security List". (Access "Help" when thee "Security List" is open to get to the security delete topic.)

    I don't remember exactly how I did it but I THINK I then, in the "Security List" clicked the entry with CUSIP 755111507 and in the "Security Detail View:" clicked the "Edit Details" button and changed the "Symbol" to RTN and the name to "RAYTHEON CO COM NEW" as it was originally recorded in my account before the merger. This got the correct correspondence of name, symbol and CUSIP for the old Ratheon stock.

    Next I had another Raytheon security with a blank CUSIP and RTX symbol I probably added from another screen ("Holdings" perhaps?) to try to solve the discrepancy alerts. I clicked that security in the "Security List" then "Edit Details" and changed the name to "Raytheon Technologies Corp.", clicked the "Lookup..." button and in the resulting pane entered "RTX", selected it from the list and clicked "Select" button and closed the "Edit Details" panel. Then on the "Security List Detail View: pane I clicked the "Update" button. When I closed that pane, back in the "Security List" I now had "Raytheon Technologies Corp." matched to RTX and a CUSIP of 75513E101.

    Finally, I used the reports generated per the "Delete a Security" instructions to to ensure / edit all the transactions for any Raytheon stock AFTER 04/03/20 and the "Bought" transaction on that date to refer to the RTX stock and all transactions BEFORE 04/03/20 and the "Sold" transactions used the RTN symbol, and confirmed the transactions quantity and dollar amounts matched statements from the brokerage firm. Since I have not had the mis-match alert.

    Bottom line, I think the problem is that you need to figure out how, in the securities list, to match the correct symbol with its corresponding CUSIP, and once you do, make sure the transactions for the merger (sold RTN, bought RTX) have the proper symbols and not CUSIP in the SYMBOL field) and that the Raytheon transactions before merger are credited to RTN, and after to RTX.
  • Dean2
    Dean2 Member ✭✭
    Thank you so much. I had RTN that was using the CUSIP for RTX. Following your steps above I unmatched RTN from it's online security and hid it so it would not be used again.Then selected RTX and tried to match to online security to get correct (and now available) CUSIP assigned. Failed a few times, and in desperation did a full quotes update. Then it matched up fine. I did an update on that account - no mismatch warning. I'll let you know if I get one when there is actually a new transaction in RTX, as Quicken may not check unless there is a transaction.
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