Returns YTD Quicken Investing Register VS. Performance Reports

Gary R

I just noticed something that I wanted to share.
The performance reports includes dividends. However, The Quicken Investment Register does not include dividends. I could never reconcile the two reports until I just realized the difference in returns were Dividends.

q_lurker

Gary R said:

OK---Let me try to make this more clear.
I'm only talking about Return Year to Date Numbers
Example---My Investing register shows Returns Year to date in the amount of $25,000.
However, when I go to Reports, Investing Performance, Year to date returns show $28,000.
I realized the difference is the $3,000 that I received in Dividends that were not re-invested.
Here's the thing----Sure--my market value is $3,000 higher in my investment register, but that number does not show up in the return year to date numbers here.

The return column in the Investment Performance Report can depend on how you have subtotaled that report.  If you subtotal by account, the report will not show the cash dividend UNLESS you took that cash dividend out of the account.  If you subtotal by security, you will see a cash dividend in the return column.  The 'cash' has been removed from the security value and is now in a 'cash security'.  In my sample above, the 'cash security' is not included.  The report is subtotaled by security and the TEST security that paid the cash dividend shows a Div in the return column.  The TEST2 security that reinvested the dividend does not show the div transaction since the value added to the ending value of the security.   (FWIW, I am having trouble getting that cash asset properly subtotaled, but I think that is not relevant to this specific discussion.)    

Mark1104

<<You guys are really on top of this. Thanks for the feedback. I was just looking at my Investment Performance report NOT SUBTOTALED. When I changed to security view the dividends were shown.>>

and that makes sense.  The performance report in effect looks at the cash in and cash out of the investment. 

When you look at it NOT sub-totaled or sub-totaled by account, it is assumed that the cash from the dividends stays in the account, so there is no impact on cash movement.  it's only when you transfer the cash to another account (or bring cash in) is it reflected in performance,.

When you look at it sub-totaled by security, it is assumed that the cash from the dividend is no longer part of the security investment, so there IS impact on cash movement.  Reinvested dividends have no impact on cash movement, so they will not appear (but of course the market value will be higher)

Mark1104

well, not really...both include dividends 

the investment register (and I hope you mean the ROI calculation) will include dividends as part of ROI calculation. 

Similarly, the performance report - by security sub-total - reflects dividends as 'cash out' and is also part of the performance calculation.  Performance is based on cash invested in the security and once the dividend occurs that cash is no longer invested.  However, if the dividend is reinvested there is no change in cash invested, so the reinvested dividend will not appear as it is a 'cash out and then cash back in' entry on the same date, but it is part of the resulting performance none-the-less as the market value will be higher 

q_lurker

Gary R said:

... However, The Quicken Investment Register does not include dividends. 

I am not clear on this statement either and I am not sure the assumption by @Mark1104 is accurate.  Would you please clarify what you meant?

Mark1104

@q_lurker - which assumption????

q_lurker

Mark1104 said:

@q_lurker - which assumption????

I meant this assumption:

the investment register (and I hope you mean the ROI calculation) 

And I only meant that from that specific context -- Investment register == ROI calculation.

Your premise that both include dividends is sound.  

Mark1104

@q_lurker - thx - he stated "the difference in RETURNS were dividends" so I did assume he was referencing ROI......even if he meant "return", it still includes dividends; let's see what he responds with

Gary R

OK---Let me try to make this more clear.
I'm only talking about Return Year to Date Numbers
Example---My Investing register shows Returns Year to date in the amount of $25,000.
However, when I go to Reports, Investing Performance, Year to date returns show $28,000.
I realized the difference is the $3,000 that I received in Dividends that were not re-invested.
Here's the thing----Sure--my market value is $3,000 higher in my investment register, but that number does not show up in the return year to date numbers here.

Mark1104

if you hover over the field, it is define as "market value plus cash income plus sales income minus dollars invested YTD" . 

I don't believe this calculates correctly given that definition,  and I do see strange results. 

let's say that on January 1, I buy 1,000 shares at $10 in Security ABC.  The next day there is a $1000 dividend. Efficient market theory says the price is now $9 / share.

a) if I take the dividend in cash I have 1,000 shares at $9 per share plus cash of $1000 so my investment remains $10,000.

b) alternatively, I reinvest the $1,000 dividend, adding 111.11 shares to my 1,000 shares.  $1111.11 at $9 per share is the same $10, 000.

But the Return YTD result in Quicken is different depending on my reinvestment decision. That doesn't make sense. 

For a), it shows a YTD Return of -$1,000, meaning the 'plus cash income' is not added into the result. That doesn't meet the definition. 

For b) it shows a YTD return of $0, which is correct but I suspect that is simply luck.. My market value is $10,000, my cash income should be $1,000 and my YTD investment should be -$1,000.  

(I did test this in Quicken and got these strange results)

q_lurker

For a), it shows a YTD Return of -$1,000, meaning the 'plus cash income' is not added into the result. That doesn't meet the definition.

In my 'same' (?) test, both Return YTD and Return shows as $0 for both the cash dividend and the reinvested dividend.  

Below jpg shows Portfolio view for the two securities (upper section), the transaction report (lower left), and the Inv. Perf. Report (lower right).  Hope I haven't crammed too much into one pic.



Note that Returns in the Investment Performance Report are NOT intended to be the same as in the Portfolio Views.

q_lurker

Gary R said:

OK---Let me try to make this more clear.
I'm only talking about Return Year to Date Numbers
Example---My Investing register shows Returns Year to date in the amount of $25,000.
However, when I go to Reports, Investing Performance, Year to date returns show $28,000.
I realized the difference is the $3,000 that I received in Dividends that were not re-invested.
Here's the thing----Sure--my market value is $3,000 higher in my investment register, but that number does not show up in the return year to date numbers here.

The return column in the Investment Performance Report can depend on how you have subtotaled that report.  If you subtotal by account, the report will not show the cash dividend UNLESS you took that cash dividend out of the account.  If you subtotal by security, you will see a cash dividend in the return column.  The 'cash' has been removed from the security value and is now in a 'cash security'.  In my sample above, the 'cash security' is not included.  The report is subtotaled by security and the TEST security that paid the cash dividend shows a Div in the return column.  The TEST2 security that reinvested the dividend does not show the div transaction since the value added to the ending value of the security.   (FWIW, I am having trouble getting that cash asset properly subtotaled, but I think that is not relevant to this specific discussion.)    

Gary R

You guys are really on top of this. Thanks for the feedback. I was just looking at my Investment Performance report NOT SUBTOTALED. When I changed to security view the dividends were shown.

Gary R

One final Comment-----I really screwed up and now realize that the investment register does in fact show dividends in the Year to date returns.

Mark1104

<<You guys are really on top of this. Thanks for the feedback. I was just looking at my Investment Performance report NOT SUBTOTALED. When I changed to security view the dividends were shown.>>

and that makes sense.  The performance report in effect looks at the cash in and cash out of the investment. 

When you look at it NOT sub-totaled or sub-totaled by account, it is assumed that the cash from the dividends stays in the account, so there is no impact on cash movement.  it's only when you transfer the cash to another account (or bring cash in) is it reflected in performance,.

When you look at it sub-totaled by security, it is assumed that the cash from the dividend is no longer part of the security investment, so there IS impact on cash movement.  Reinvested dividends have no impact on cash movement, so they will not appear (but of course the market value will be higher)