Investment Performance - A how-to

Tod

OK thanks for the tips. It sounds like I will have to export to excel to get the information I'm after. I know that this is outside of your control, but I wish that Quicken could do this itself. Based on the number of posts asking why cost-basis and amount invested don't "line up" with what they've contributed to a plan/investment, it seems like information that many people want.Based on the flexibility already in Quicken (I've used three different was to move cash into various retirement plans - BoughtX, ContribX, and XIn), I don't see a simple way to give people what they want._ Nor do I_see a consensus as to what it is they want.__Usually the user_tends to see the picture only through their glasses and has little interest in how their solution works for the general case._ The easy case is the single investment that is now $1100 from a $1000 contribution._ But what about the loan taken out, the early withdrawl, the penalty, the rmd, the rollover transfer into the account, the sold that and bought this 'exchange'?___

Unknown

Extremely useful tips!

Unknown

Tod's explanation is a helpful kind of explanation, but I still need to where the numbers come from.  Which numbers (steps in Tod's calculations) are downloaded numbers?  Which are input?  And for numbers where the ansewr can be either, what circustances determine whether Quicken uses a downloaded number or an entered number for these calculations?  The help file on the current version of Quicken is improved, but still doesn't document how these important calculations are produced.

Tod

... but I still need to where the numbers come from. Which numbers (steps in Tod's calculations) are downloaded numbers? Which are input? And for numbers where the ansewr can be either, what circustances determine whether Quicken uses a downloaded number or an entered number for these calculations? The help file on the current version of Quicken is improved, but still doesn't document how these important calculations are produced.[With reference specifically to Q2005]_ The Glossary accessible from the Investing Center Portfolio tab does a good job identifying which columns_of the portfolio view are based on calculations and which are downloaded._ For Q2005, the only inaccuracy I know of is that_Return (%), Return (%) 1/3/5-Year and Return (%) YTD_are indicated as calculated but they are actually downloaded._ I understand later editions have corrected that error.

Unknown

I, too, would like to have some answers/information about usint Money rather than Quicken.  Are they comparable?Joanne

Unknown

Placeholder WarningsI know how to enter share price and cost to a placeholder.When I try to enter same I get warnings such as-value too great enter two transactions-do you want to enter a short sale-cost must be greater than that already in quicken...even though there is no cost in the accountWhen I refer to instructions either in a book or help in quicken I'm told just how to enter the missing cost in the average cost form, it merely shos how to make the entries.&#8230_nothing in relation to the above warnings.Would appreciate some help.Thank you

Unknown

Based on this thread and specifically Tod's great examples, I have decided to use IRR to track my accounts (Average annual return in IRR)I have found a few issues which I am hoping people can help me with:1. I transfered brokerage accounts a few years ago and transactions that were initially "reinvested dividends" in the old account show up as "add-shares added" in the new account.  This is affecting the IRR calculation2. The dates that I purchased the mutual funds show up wrongly because it shows up as the date that the funds were added to the new brokerage accout vs. the actual purchase date3.  The most baffling issue is that the investment amount in the report for a "add-shares added" transaction does not match the actual transaction.  To illustrate the above three points here is a real example.  I bought $2000 of a mutual fund on 12/30/2004 in scottrade (110.436shares).  I transferred to firstrade on 4/14/2005. The original transaction in scottrade shows $2000 purchase, the add share transaction in firstrade shows $2000 but the report shows $1952.51 for that transaction.  If I double click on that transaction in the report it is actually $2000. I am attaching a screen shot of the report and the transaction windown.  I have unhidden the scottrade account so that you can see that data tooThanksAndy

Tod

<FONT size=2>I have found a few issues which I am hoping people can help me with:</FONT><FONT size=2>asd108b:_ Apparently no one currently posting here regularly has the understanding or interest in replying to you._ </FONT><FONT size=2>To begin with, it is worthwhile to understand the IRR (aka Average Annual return) calculations._ I have taken your data (the Investment Performance Report), exported it to Excel, and let Excel calculate the same IRR as Quicken shows._ (Often I find_a difference of a couple of hundredths of a percent - in that case, they match.)_ A pdf of that Excel spreadsheet is attached._ </FONT>Note that I have resorted the entries by date rather than by Account as Quicken presents the data._ That is only for clarity and not necessary for the bottom line calculation._ The right hand column is the cash flow stream used by Excel in conjunction with the dates in Quicken area._ Those values are simply +Investment column -Return column._ Those two columns of data are all that are needed to calculate the IRR value.__ What should be clearly evident is that the net transactions on 4/14/2005 yielded no net cash flow._ There is a negative 17,036.82 value and several positive values that add to the same value._ As such in this data stream, all the 4/14/2005 transactions could be eliminated without affecting the IRR value of 11.9%._ Quicken's approach of removing shares and adding in shares is properly executed and does not force errors into the calculation of IRR even though_some users try to so complain._ Where people get into trouble with this is by not looking at the big picture._ You have looked at the big picture by considering both accounts._ If you processed only on the basis of the individual accounts (either Scottrade or Firstrade) both Quicken and Excel would report different values that could be misleading._ Similarly, one might consider the case where in Firstrade_a different security had been bought._ By looking at the big picture, the_proper cash flow based IRR can be comupted._ Now to you more specific questions:_ 1. I transfered brokerage accounts a few years ago and transactions that were initially "reinvested dividends" in the old account show up as "add-shares added" in the new account. This is affecting the IRR calculation. Yes, it properly affects the calculations by balancing out the 17,000 return generated by the remove protion of the transaction.2. The dates that I purchased the mutual funds show up wrongly because it shows up as the date that the funds were added to the new brokerage accout vs. the actual purchase date the dates being shown are the transaction dates._ If you go to any of those 'Add Shares' transactions and look at the data (edit the data to see the 'form'), you will see that there is also a date acquired field._ That keeps things correct for all later cap-gains determination.3. The most baffling issue is that the investment amount in the report for a "add-shares added" transaction does not match the actual transaction. The dollar-amount that was removed was the cost-basis for the shares removed - including reinvestment purchases._ That same dollar amount is added back in through the Add shares portion of the transaction._ Hope this helps._ If you have other questions, post back._ Although I no longer regularly participate here, eventually, I or some other knowledgable soul should be able to reply._ _

Unknown

I have had problems understanding the Investment Performance Report but believe if I ask for a full year's investment performance I do get a correct answer when looking at any security.  BUT I do not get a correct figure when I try to get the same for a total account, e.g. my IRA account.  What is happening is that the report now picks up any amount entered as Miscellaneous on the "Inc-Income" transaction entry form into the Performance Report and calculation.  This is true when I use Miscellaneous to report Royalties, deduct Foreign Tax Withheld, TaxFree Interest, Return of Capital, etc.    I believe that when the IRR for the FULL ACCOUNT is calculated, it should only include Beginning and Ending balances and cash deposited or withdrawn (other than income items) and transfers made in or out of the account.  I.e, dividends added to the account end up in cash which becomes part of the ending account balance.  Miscellaneous items should be treated the same way.  This occurs on the Investment Performance Report and in the Average Annual Return on the Investment Performance tab also.

Unknown

Previously, I was able to 'hide' a security after selling it from all screens. Now, it remains on the portfolio screen with 'Return' and 'ROI%' values, corrupting the totals at the bottom for the portfolio. This appears to occur in the 2008 version!Any clues?

Unknown

I don't really understand what exactly you are looking for._ I owned a security once with a guaranteed dividend._ Every month they paid my $10, but every month the price of the security declined so that my holdings lost more than $10_ it was pretty obvious I was losing money, so I sold it.I've always had an issue with IRR (individual rate of return), ROI (return on investment) and what the FI's call "personal rate of return"._ If you Wiki IRR you'll see that it classically appears in an area called "Engineering Finance" where the company sets some threshold rate of return on it's investments and IRR benchmarks cost vs. benefit of various projects to see how fast they pay back and to prioritize between competing projects._ ROI seems to imply some period of time: do you want todate, annualized, quarterly, whatever?_ FI personal rates of return never seem to match with my gut feel, like they say I'm getting 20% but my fund has declined in value despite steady contributions._ My tact has been that I spent X dollars to get into Acme (the RoadRunner's Acme) and at some time down the road, my Acme holdings are worth Y._ Y/X is my percent gain or loss._ I do want to be sure that I track how many shares of Acme I have, but I still have only invested X dollars._ If I buy more shares then X increases, if I sell some it decreases, but the scoring stops when I close the position._ Quicken does this well and I see my results on my portfolio._ I even had one stock where the sales dollars exceeded the cost dollars because the dividends were so good._ Quicken still tracks that as a negative cost basis.When I look at my portfolio by account, I can see individual lots and get an idea if my good performers are only historically good and recently failing, or if they are continuing to perform._ I wish I could view it_by security and drill down to lots._ I frequently try a small quantity of stock for a couple of months to see not only the price fluctuation but also the dividends._ I sell the losers and gradually increase my position in the winners._ If it's volatile, I sell faster or buy faster (like that energy stock that's up 11% since I bought my first shares on April 18th and which the CEO is buying up at market prices.)I apologize if I am off topic or this seems controversial or flat WRONG because of the way I manipulate it._ To me, it's meaningful and I'm glad Quicken handles it this way._ Beyond that, I don't need reports or analysis, and I don't have to take the FI's answer._ My complete portfolio updates every morning (yesterday's quotes don't seem to show until then) and I don't have to hit half a dozen websites and wonder when they refreshed or how they calculated._ I'm not lagged waiting for transactions to clear.I hope this helps you to understand and maybe refine your strategy.

Tod

Previously, I was able to 'hide' a security after selling it from all screens. Now, it remains on the portfolio screen with 'Return' and 'ROI%' values, corrupting the totals at the bottom for the portfolio. This appears to occur in the 2008 version! Any clues? On the same screen where you choose to 'hide' securities you should find the 'option' to 'View Hidden Securities'._ Uncheck that option._

J_Mike

<DIV class=size3>Previously, I was able to 'hide' a security after selling it from all screens. Now, it remains on the portfolio screen with 'Return' and 'ROI%' values, corrupting the totals at the bottom for the portfolio. This appears to occur in the 2008 version! Any clues? </DIV><DIV class=size3>_</DIV><DIV class=size3>In Portfolio View, check Options and see if "Show closed lots" is checked - clear if it is.</DIV>

Tod

Have you read this thread?_ I don't really understand what exactly you are looking for._ Who are you writing to?_ Apparently my original post since no other post indicates you are replying to it, though your presentation doesn't seem to address my OP in any fashion._ Nor does your referenced thread relate to my post from 2+ years ago._ I thought I made it pretty clear what my objective was._ I've always had an issue with IRR (individual rate of return), ROI (return on investment) and what the FI's call "personal rate of return"._ If you Wiki IRR you'll see that it classically appears in an area called "Engineering Finance" where the company sets some threshold rate of return on it's investments and IRR benchmarks cost vs. benefit of various projects to see how fast they pay back and to prioritize between competing projects._Now there is a reliable source._ Why would you go to Wikipedia when Quicken quite completey defines what it is doing with the parameters it offers?_ And IRR is more accurately the acronym for 'Internal Rate of_ Return' which is the way Quicken presents it and handles it._ No wonder you have issues._ But you are wise to look for an apples-to-apples comparison of 'other sources' to your Quicken data._ My tact has been that I spent X dollars to get into Acme (the RoadRunner's Acme) and at some time down the road, my Acme holdings are worth Y._ Y/X is my percent gain or loss._ You are free to use any 'tact' (sic) you choose._ Just don't expect others to follow suit or Intuit to change it's soundly based approach to to fit your viewpoint._ Your Y/X is only 'capital gains' gain or loss and does not reflect other returns an investment might offer._ I even had one stock where the sales dollars exceeded the cost dollars because the dividends were so good._ Quicken still tracks that as a negative cost basis.Everytime - EVERY one - Quicken has shown me a negative cost basis, I have found it to be a problem with my data entry._ Every time - MY mistake, which I duly corrected.I apologize if I am off topic or this seems controversial or flat WRONG because of the way I manipulate it._ Off topic - apparently, but that is pretty common in these postings._ Frankly, the_times it is necessary to 'manipulate' data in Quicken are rather few and dividends and dividend re-investments are not usually one of those areas._ I would consider what you apparently are doing to be flat wrong, though it is not clear to me at all what your approach is (nor do I care)._

J_Mike

snipI even had one stock where the sales dollars exceeded the cost dollars because the dividends were so good._ Quicken still tracks that as a negative cost basis.Everytime - EVERY one - Quicken has shown me a negative cost basis, I have found it to be a problem with my data entry._ Every time - MY mistake, which I duly corrected.snipCan think of only one situation where QW will "legitamately" report a negative cost basis and that is where the holding issues cumulative_Return of Capital exceeding the original investment. The IRS regs cover this by requiring the "excess" ROC be reported as dividend income_ i.e., the cost basis can not be negative for tax reporting purposes. Tracking this situation in QW will require the user to recognize_when it occurs_and to_reclassify the excess ROC.Am having difficulty visualizing where a negative cost basis was result of "...the sales dollars exceeded the cost dollars because the dividends were so good".Aside - good to hear from you Tod_- your knowledgable and to-the-point posts have_been sorely missed!!_

Rocket J Squirrel

<span style="font-style: italic_">Can think of only one situation where QW will "legitamately" report anegative cost basis and that is where the holding issuescumulative_Return of Capital exceeding the original investment.</span>A negative cost basis will also correctly result from a short sale. (Sorry for adding to the off-topic drift here.)

Unknown

I have tried 'checking' and  'un-checking' "View Hidden Securities". It makes no difference! The hidden security still shows on the portfolio screen  - though not on the "securities" screen..

Tod

My error with the prior advise which is not applicable for the portfolio view._ From the Portfolio view, go to Customize View._ On that screen, you should find a different check box about 'Show (hidden securities'.

Unknown

That does it!Many Thanks

Unknown

I have not read the whole chain here but hoping someone would have a quick answer as to how you can enter an unrealized loss to an inestment account so you can calculate a YTD negative return??? My investment accounts have a variety of investments so I have always used one of the capital gain actions (i.e. CGShort) and then entered in the unrealized gain... this always worked when the investment account grew in value. Now, however, accounts are down and when I enter say CGShort and try and put in a negative number it will not accept the value and changes it to a positive number. Any help out there???Thanks.

Unknown

Quote:" Investment Performance - A how-to: I have not read the whole chain here but hoping someone would have a quick..."Unrealized gains and losses are handled by the current stock or mutual price._ These gains or losses are compared to the price at purchase.Since they are unrealized, there is nothing to do in Quicken except plug in the actual current price for the day in question, if you do not or cannot download prices automatically via Quicken.

Howard Roark

Quote:" Investment Performance - A how-to: I have not read the whole chain here but hoping someone would have a quick..."There's no need to enter a transaction to record returns, and doing so will leave your account incorrect.If you have properly entered_Quicken transactions_representing your_real-world transactions and you have_correct security prices, Quicken will_calculate returns for you._ See the Portfolio View._ [Note also the Glossary found there.]

Unknown

I have been tracking the performance of five mutual funds for 12 years.  The recent market downturn has produced some unusual "total average annual return (AATR)" numbers.  Is it possible to have a "positive" AATR over this period when having an actual loss currently?