Quicken 2017 nagware ethical? Constant ads to upgrade to 2018 subscription

Chad115

I'm just wondering if I'm the only Quicken 2017 user who feels that it is unethical for Quicken to sell commercial software that constantly advertises upgrading to the 2018 subscription software?  I can't even start using my purchased 2017 software until I click to close the nagging window, and Quicken call center employees have confirmed that the user is incapable of preventing this window from coming up again even though there is a "Remind me later" checkbox that misleads the user into thinking they have control over it.  The checkbox is only there for decoration since it doesn't have any function whatsoever.

I underline "commercial software" above because this is a word that has a very specific meaning.  For example, freeware is entirely free, crippleware works but has certain features disabled, donationware is free but asks for donations, shareware is free with an expiration date (i.e. free trial)... but commercial software is purchased by the user.  It advertises being commercial software, but in reality it functions as nagware.

In my situation, it's especially frustrating because I never had planned to upgrade to 2017 in the first place.  The only reason I upgraded in the first place is because a call center employee falsely told me that upgrading to 2017 would solve a bug that is documented here:
https://community.quicken.com/discussion/7851069/some-previously-reconciled-transactions-show-up-as-unreconciled/p1?new=1
Upgrading did not solve this problem - it only created a new problem of now having my software nag me to upgrade to 2018 nearly every time I run it.

I feel deceived, because the call center employee never told me I would essentially be downgrading my software from the status of "commercial" to the status of "nagware."  I feel he should have warned me that upgrading to 2017 would cause me to have an ad pop up on my screen almost every time I run Quicken.  I hate it SO MUCH.  Quicken, please get rid of this popup and stop harassing those who have spent their hard-earned money PURCHASING your 2017 software.  You are really truly punishing people for good behavior - they buy your software and the first thing you do is tell them they need to buy more?

Dan Glynhampton

You may feel deceived, but there are some factual errors in your statements above, and it appears you are not familiar with the agreement you entered into when you installed the software.

First of all, whatever your definition of "commercial software", you have never purchased the software; rather you have purchased a licence to use it in accordance with the terms of the End User Licence Agreement (EULA).  The following is a quote from section 2.2 of the General Terms of the 2017 EULA:  

2.2 You acknowledge and agree that the Software is licensed, not sold.

As to adverts in the software, section 6.4 of the Additional Terms and Conditions in the ELUA says:

6.4 You acknowledge and agree that you are not entitled to any compensation for any advertisements and other information that Quicken and its licensees may display adjacent to or included with your data or Content Quicken Account Data on and through the Quicken Software, Quicken Online Features, and Ancillary Services. Quicken reserves the right to change the manner, mode and extent of such advertising at any time, in its sole discretion, with or without notice.

So unfortunately from your point of view, that agreement seems to allow Quicken to do exactly what they are doing.

As to the "remind me later" checkbox on that pop-up, are you checking it or leaving it unchecked?  Try doing the opposite to whatever you are doing with that checkbox and see if that stops it next time. It will eventually return, but it should be possible to not have it appear for a few restarts.

Chad115

I already said that a Quicken call center employee confirmed that this checkbox has no function.  Of course I've tried leaving it checked and also unchecking it.

Dan, do you not think there is a problem with Quicken telling me I needed to upgrade to 2017 in order to fix a bug, which turns out to be untrue (the bug is still there and is overwhelmingly documented in this community), but now I'm stuck with pop-up windows?

Dan Glynhampton

If they told you it would fix a bug and it didn’t, then it sounds to me like you have a case for a refund.  If you have the support case number you could follow it up. 

As to the pop-up windows, they have been a feature for several versions now, when a new version comes out they advertise the new one that way. I’ve never personally been stuck with them as you seem to be though, usually that "remind me later" box gets did of it for a few restarts. I don’t know if it will make any difference, but you could try downloading and applying the latest Mondo patch from here, that should at least eliminate any problems with your installation. 

Chad115

Also Dan, two more points:  1)  I asked a question asking about ethics, and you gave me an answer that lies only in the realm of legality.  Many unethical practices are protected by legal agreements.

2)  The information about licensing is not available on any product sales listings for Quicken 2017, let alone where I purchased it (Amazon.com), so the consumer has no reasonable ability to consider the points you make until both (a) after they've already purchased the software, and (b) after they've already opened the box and are prompted to read the agreement before installing the software (meaning they can no longer return the product).  Do you really see no ethical problems with that?

The product box (and description on the website) should say that the product comes with pop-up advertisements.

Chad115

I already have version 19.1 and there is nothing wrong with it.  For the third time, an employee I spoke with in the call center said that this pop-up window behaves the way it does by design.  It is not a problem with installation, it is running exactly the way Quicken intended it to run.  They acknowledge that the checkbox does nothing.

Dan Glynhampton

Chad said:

I already have version 19.1 and there is nothing wrong with it.  For the third time, an employee I spoke with in the call center said that this pop-up window behaves the way it does by design.  It is not a problem with installation, it is running exactly the way Quicken intended it to run.  They acknowledge that the checkbox does nothing.

But they also told you that it would fix a bug if you upgraded, and it didn’t. Yet you seem to unreservedly accept their statements about that checkbox. 

Chad115

I have no case for a refund because it took many months to figure out that the bug is still there.  You have to reconcile an account by hand (a very active account with many transactions each month) many times before the bug shows up.  The refund window with Amazon is gone.  Plus you can't refund a software box that is open as part of Amazon's policy anyway.

When I upgraded, I had to rebuild all of my accounts from scratch, and it's overwhelming to think about doing that again.  Eventually I will probably go back to using my old Quicken 2008 since it's no worse than 2017 when it comes to what I use the software for (manually enter transactions, manually reconcile them from paper statements, print out reports at the end of the year for taxes). 

This entire discussion about refunds is totally irrelevant to my original question about ethics, which by the way you have still managed to avoid addressing.  I have no problem with people being madly in love with Quicken and showing extreme bias toward them, which clearly you show, but your comments in this thread have been very unhelpful because they are all devoted to the single tunnel-visioned purpose of finding some reason why my original question isn't even valid to ask in the first place, when in fact it is a totally valid and important question to ask.  If you don't like my question and don't want to answer it, why exactly are you here in this thread?  I've refuted everything you brought up, and all you can do is ask me why I haven't returned my product yet?

Monsanto can legally patent life itself and sue farmers for having Monsanto weeds on their crops that they didn't even want there in the first place because some other farmer's legitimately planted Monsanto plants infected their crops via wind (or via other trucks carrying seed spilling onto their farm while driving on a neighboring road).  Nobody on this planet except those working for Monsanto would argue that this is in any way ethical, and yet it has all been totally legitimized by court cases because, unfortunately, judges' hands are tied by horrific technicalities and failings of the system.  I totally reject any argument that says "It's ethical because it's in their license agreement," especially when the customer can't read that agreement until after they have opened the box, making returns impossible.  I agree that license agreements mean they can do this or that, but I'm not asking if they can, I'm asking if they should.

Dan Glynhampton

Chad said:

Also Dan, two more points:  1)  I asked a question asking about ethics, and you gave me an answer that lies only in the realm of legality.  Many unethical practices are protected by legal agreements.

Unfortunately the "E" in EULA doesn't stand for Ethical. You might not like the business with pop-up advertisements, and you certainly have my sympathy, but the EULA allows them to do it.  Which brings me to your next point:

2)  The information about licensing is not available on any product sales listings for Quicken 2017, let alone where I purchased it (Amazon.com), so the consumer has no reasonable ability to consider the points you make until both (a) after they've already purchased the software, and (b) after they've already opened the box and are prompted to read the agreement before installing the software (meaning they can no longer return the product).  Do you really see no ethical problems with that?

The information about licencing is available before you open the box, I suspect most people don't bother to read it before opening the box though. Here's a photo of the lower rear of the Q2017 packaging...



...where you can see it says in bold text that use of the product requires acceptance of the licence, and gives a link to it.

Quicken aren't really any different in this regard to any of the major software vendors, they all have lengthy EULAs written in legalese that we all gloss over and click "accept" when we install the software.  If we then find out we don't like some aspect of it though, it's a bit late...

All of that aside though, do you have the case number for your conversation with a support agent when they told you that upgrading to Q2017 would fix the bug you were experiencing?  Because it certainly sounds to me as though you are owed a refund for that.

Chad115

Dan, again you sidestep my original post.  Please step aside and allow other users to chip in.  I'm not even sure they will at this point because this discussion is infected with so many red herrings.  Your entire response here is already addressed by the last sentence of my post before it.

NotACPA

YES THEY SHOULD.  What is unethical about advertising an updated product within the current product ... WHICH YOU LEASED AND DID NOT BUY???

Dan Glynhampton

Chad said:
Your entire response here is already addressed by the last sentence of my post before it.

No it’s not, I’ve asked you twice now, and you’ve failed to respond, if you have the case number for your conversation with a support agent that informed you upgrading to Q2017 would fix the bug. If you have proof of your assertion, go back to Quicken support and request a refund.

I've also provided you with a suggestion to apply the Mondo patch to see if if affects the behaviour of the pop-up box but you prefer to assert that there’s nothing wrong with your installation.

So as you don’t seem to have come to this forum for help, but rather just to complain that you agreed to a software licence that you now don’t like, I don’t see that anyone can help you, and I’ll happily stand aside. 

Quicken Sarah

Hello Everyone,

This thread has become argumentative and is being closed.

To officially confirm, unchecking the "Remind Me Later" box in the lower left corner of the promotional offer for Quicken 2019 will dismiss the promotion and turn off the upgrade offer for the duration of that promotion.

When a new promotion begins, a new offer is created and the window will again appear when opening Quicken, until once again dismissed.

@Chad - if unchecking the "Remind Me Later" box before closing the window does not dismiss the offer and it continues to reappear every time Quicken is opened, please contact Quicken Support again so this behavior may be looked further into.

Thank you,

Sarah