Quicken Mac: Breaks account transfer links.

xxxx

Certain actions, such as changing a transaction category or tags, will break the transaction transfer links across ledgers.

This totally screws up the books, as one might imagine.

The problem persists in the latest Mac Version 6.3.3 (Build 603.41049.100).

It was present in prior versions.

xxxx

None of what I experience "should" happen. What I am describing is, from the user's perspective, a severe bug. The notation I use for both categories and tags are conventional. No special notation.

I have been using Quicken for decades, and am a highly experienced user.

The transfer link column is already shown. Otherwise, I would not know that the link is being corrupted.

Another aspect that has occurred occasionally. A value entered into one field ( Transfer ) suddenly shows in another supposedly independent column ( Category ). That is, as if the data fields are in fact one and the same.

xxxx

Thanks for your comment, RickO! Much appreciated.

xxxx

A screen recording via Dropbox is here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tyrue8vm38qnr1d/Screen%20Recording%202021-09-10%20at%209.10.34%20AM.mov?dl=0

The problem persists even after a thorough clean install of Quicken, w deletion of all preference files.

jacobs

@xxxx. I actually see nothing unexpected in your video. I think what you probably don't realize is that using both a transfer and a category on a transaction is problematic from an accounting standpoint, and Quicken is phasing out allowing it to happen -- but it currently allows it under some circumstances, creating confusion. 

A transaction can fundamentally be income, an expense, or a transfer of funds from one account to another. A transaction can't be both an expense and a funds transfer. Because of the limitations of the 2010 Quicken Essentials program which formed the code base for the modern Quicken Mac -- no tracking of investment transactions, limited reporting and budgeting -- it allowed transfers to also have a category. As Quicken built out the features in the current program, this became more and more problematic, and the executive team at Quicken has stated that because it violates the rules of accounting, they will end Quicken Mac's capability of categorizing a transfer. (I could provide more detail on why it's an accounting problem, but I don't want to go too deep into that here.)

The confusion comes about because until they make more changes to the program, Quicken now partly limits users from categorizing a transaction, but not completely. If you enter a new transaction, and enter a category first and then enter a transaction, Quicken will save both. If you enter a new transaction, and enter a transfer first and then a category, Quicken will eliminate the transfer.

The same happens with editing an existing transaction, as you were trying to do: if you have saved a category with a category and transfer, if you edit the transfer field and save, Quicken will retain both the category and transfer. if you have saved a category with a category and transfer, if you edit the category field and save, Quicken will retain only the category, not the transfer. 

I don't know why the developers left things in this inconsistent state, but the key thing to understand is that wiping out the transfer if you enter/edit a category is not the error; the error is allowing a transaction to have a category and a transfer. I imagine they will close the current loophole at some point.

My suggestion is to figure out how you want to manage your records in Quicken without using transactions which are both categorized and transfers and make the switch now, since you'll probably have to at some point anyhow. Depending on what you're trying to do, it can often be accomplished by using two transactions -- recognize the expense in one account in one transaction, then in a second transaction transfer funds from that account to another account. 

xxxx

Hi Jacobs. Thanks for the comment. Not sure I understand your explanation, however.

=====

"...but the key thing to understand is that wiping out the transfer if you enter/edit a category is not the error; the error is allowing a transaction to have a category and a transfer."

=====


A "Transfer" and a "Category" are fundamentally different concepts. Not necessarily incompatible.

As I recall, I used categories in a similar fashion up through Quicken 2007, a great program.

Quicken Essentials mixed things up a bit, and the successor Quicken addressed many of the issues.


A Category is in effect a label, potentially with a hierarchical structure ( ie subcategories ).

That has no effect on the nature of a Transaction itself, whether or not the funds are transferred.

A transfer transaction subtracts funds from one account, and adds them to the recipient account.


Without being able to categorize fund transfers, Quicken would be useless for me.

I would then have to go on to Quickbooks, which allows such categorization.

Having used Quicken for both home and small business accounting since the 1990's, I'd be bummed.


Perhaps the folks at Quicken have not fully thought through the significance and use of Categories??

xxxx

Further to my last comment. I use Categories and subcategories for reporting purposes.

I use Transfers in part to track, transaction by transaction, income/spending across different double entry accounts. For example, a vendor check payment will originate with the current account. But that payment is also relevant to the A/P account and is recorded using the Quicken Transfer field. The payment category and subcategory status is exactly the same regardless of the account.

I have used Quicken this way for many, many years. It was integral to the design of Quicken 2007 which, in fact, specifically denoted business related reports: cashflow, A/R, A/P, etc ...

My current business accounts, tracked in Quicken, includes >15 years worth of transaction data.

xxxx

An additional related problem.

On occasion, if I enter a value in the Transfer field - the name of the linked account - that same value appears in the Category field. The behavior is as if the fields are in fact one and the same.

That is a big problem. It is also repeatable.

Again, I believe the problems I describe are not an application feature, but rather a serious bug(s).

Or they are indicative of file corruption, which I cannot check without proper Quicken tech support.

jacobs

xxxx said:

An additional related problem. On occasion, if I enter a value in the Transfer field - the name of the linked account - that same value appears in the Category field. The behavior is as if the fields are in fact one and the same. That is a big problem. It is also repeatable.

Again, I believe the problems I describe are not an application feature, but rather a serious bug(s).

You can believe what you want to believe, but I'm telling you this behavior is by design; it is not a bug. You can select an account in the Transfer field, or you can do the same thing by entering "Transfer:[Account name]" n the category field. The are not the same field in the database, but they work together. As I wrote above, currently it depends which order you enter first as to whether it will or will not allow you to enter a category separate from a transfer. At some point in the future, you won't.

xxxx said:

As I recall, I used categories in a similar fashion up through Quicken 2007, a great program.

In Quicken 2007, there was not a separate Transfer field. Transfers were entered in the Category field, issuing brackets: "[Account name]". You couldn't have a transfer and category on the same transaction. 

In accounting, there are four primary types of accounts in a general ledger: income, expense, asset and liability. An accounting transaction consists of a debit to one account and a credit to another. For example, purchasing something would be a debit to the expense account and a credit to a cash or credit card account. Moving money between accounts would likewise debit one and credit the other.

Quicken doesn't use the same accounting terminology. Accounts are only for assets and liabilities. Categories are used for income and expenses. In Quicken Essentials, and carried forward into Quicken Mac, it was possible to combine a transfer between accounts with a category for income or expense. But this isn't the way accounting works, and it causes people to run into problems in reports because the transaction was doing two things. Each transaction should be either an income/expense or a movement of funds between accounts. It definitely is possible to use Quicken this way, although it may take two transactions to represent what you have done in one.

Here's what the product manager for Quicken Mac wrote about this last year:

Our leadership team has decided that categories on transfers violates core accounting principals that our products should be based on and we are slowly removing this functionality from the Mac but haven't done it yet because we needed to add the advanced transfer, adjustment and cash flow capabilities we just added in 5.13 and 5.14.  We're now working on improving Transfer and mortgage payment support in budgets.  Once this is complete, we will start the process of removing the ability to add a category to a transfer.

I hope that helps clarify my previous answer. 

xxxx

Jacobs.

Discovered the likely issue.

In the Preferences, the "Allow linked transfers using the category field" was checked.

This seems to be on by default. Though I am not sure this was always the case.

As I have done a clean install of Quicken, this feature, which I didn't want, was active.

Also, to your previous points, I reviewed some of the prior discussions that outline your concerns.

My suspicion that unchecking this preference option will resolve my immediate issues.

Thank you for your feedback ... very helpful.

xxxx

This Quicken statement is new to me:

"Our leadership team has decided that categories on transfers violates core accounting principals that our products should be based on and we are slowly removing this functionality from the Mac ..."

Though I would like to hear the exact rationale behind this thinking. It would depend on how Categories are being used. I use them as a way of reporting data.

Given the change, we need to either move away from Quicken or stop using Transfers as a way to reduce manual data entry. I appreciate the heads up!

xxxx

Jacobs.

Is there a thorough explanation about where Quicken is headed in the design change?

It may be the planned changes will work. Quicken certainly has been problematic in how it reports some data - incorrect from an accounting perspective. We did work arounds. No fun.

For example, is there a detailed explanation somewhere about what is meant by the new "advanced transfer, adjustment and cash flow capabilities"?

jacobs

I believe the “advanced transfer, adjustment and cash flow capabilities" refers to features which has been added over the past year or two to enable transfers to be selectively included in reports and budgets. These capabilities were missing until last year.

It might help if you shared an example or two of transactions you currently do with categorized transfers, and why you believe that recording the expense in a separate transaction from a funds transfer wouldn’t work for you. (I have one such transaction with is problematic — an IRA withdrawal — which requires a workaround.)