Quicken CEO, Updates with Schwab (& now Citi) are still not fixed. Data file corrupted now

M2AZ
M2AZ Member ✭✭
Dear Eric Dunn (Quicken CEO),
I received your email nearly a month ago, and two weeks prior to that Quicken has caused me so many issues just trying to9 keep my Schwab accounts in sync. I appreciate your sending the note recognizing you have an issue, but it's now going on month two, along with several patches, and still have major problems.

Quicken is not a cheap subscription, and more alternatives are becoming available. It is time you appreciate your long term customers (I have owned Quicken for 25+ years), In my view each month these bugs continue to be unresolved, we should receive an extended month or credit of our subscription for no charge. We are now into month two, you should look at giving us an additional two months of credit for each user/customer that uses Schwab.

I am a CTO at a fortune 10 company, and have first-hand experience with these issues and in dealing with them quickly and professionally. I would never roll out a new platform or process that was not thoroughly tested and Alpha and Beta modes, before beginning a rollout to the general user/customer. It is obvious that this was never thought through and tested properly. From experience, I know how challenging these types of issues can be, but this needs to get addressed now. These patches have corrupted my Quicken data file, and if it wasn't for my daily backups, I would have a real disaster on my hands. What is your roll-back plan? Maybe it's time to roll-back and then fix the new interface, and then thoroughly test it before you try to roll it out again? All of these patches have been a mess. And, I have given up on waiting for Quicken support to help me anymore, I have been on hold way too long, and then when I do talk with someone it's the same message - "we are aware and working on it".

Eric, I hope you take this message seriously, and are aware that a lot of people are struggling with these sync issues, and data is being lost. I wouldn't be surprised if a class action suit is being considered. This has been going on for too long, and we are paying customers that are paying for the product to work.

Please get directly involved and do whatever you need to and get the product stable. Roll-back if you have to, just get us back to where we were before this Schwab mess began.

Comments

  • garysmith87
    garysmith87 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Considering that someone is a CTO at a Fortune 10 company, they have zero idea how this all works.

    There are three companies in play here:

    1 Charles Schwab
    2 Quicken
    3 Intuit

    Let's talk about all three.  Schwab decided they wanted to change their aggregation security to using a token system instead of keeping a username/password system.  This also changed their connection type from the very reliable (but apparently security risk) Direct Connect to a version of Express Web Connect, which is now Express Web Connect +.  Direct Connect takes out the Intuit server "middle man".  Now...that middle man exists with EWC+.  Did Schwab contact Quicken and Intuit when they wanted to make this change?  And how much notice did they give Quicken and Intuit?  No one knows those answers unless you work for those companies.

    Quicken is basically only the messenger.  It downloads transactions either directly using your login username and password or through Intuit's servers, which log in to the bank usually at night and downloads transactions to the Intuit servers...which awaits Quicken "calling" for those awaiting transactions via One Step Update.  

    Intuit is the "middle man" aggregator.  They are the ones who connect to Express Web Connect banks.  Your username and password is stored on Intuit's servers, where they can access your transactions usually at night.  

    But...Schwab has eliminated this "username/password" log in in favor of creating a changing token that aggregators must now use, all in the name of increased security.  If you noticed, Schwab changed their Terms of Service as such that they are no longer responsible for any fraud involved with your account if you connect to any outside aggregation.  Which you recently agreed to. 

    So...blaming this on Quicken is ridiculous.  First off Schwab changed from a very reliable Direct Connect download process to a new, but slightly similar Express Web Connect + connection.  As with all Express Web Connect downloads, they are dicey at best.  This is no exception.

    Your idea that somehow Quicken should have waited until all the bugs were worked out is completely wrong.  Quicken is under Schwab's timetable...not the other way around.  Quicken did NOT institute this change...Schwab did.  And Quicken is now trying to fit the proverbially round peg into the square hole that Schwab has created to get this all to work.

    If you think that somehow Quicken isn't working feverishly to fix this issue for its customers...or that somehow Quicken is just ignoring the problem...that would be foolish. You can see the plethora of updates being released this past month in an attempt to get this rectified.  Apparently, Quicken thinks each release fixes the issue...and they've been wrong...so it's back to the drawing board.

    Now, every user realizes how frustrating it is when any component of Quicken doesn't work as advertised.  I've been there and the frustration can boil over at times.  However, I try to take a step back, report the issue and wait, sometimes not so patiently, for a release that fixes the issue.  And for that time being, I manually enter the transactions I am unable to download.  Time consuming?  Yes.  Accurate though...yes!

    And finally, if you're awaiting a credit from Quicken, you've got a very long wait.  In the users agreement YOU AGREED TO when you installed Quicken, Quicken has ZERO responsibility for any online services that are provided or implied by third parties.  Intuit is a third party.  Schwab is a third party.

    No compensation will be forthcoming...I'll bet you a beer on that.  

    In the meantime, I would vehemently complain to Schwab and ask for compensation from them...and as always, if a financial institution won't listen to your issues, there are other options aside from Schwab that interface just fine with Quicken.  You might want to explore them.  
  • Chris_QPW
    Chris_QPW Member ✭✭✭✭
    @garysmith87 I wouldn't say that Quicken Inc is blameless in this.  First off if you look at some of what has been posted by them, they seem to be all in favor for this change as the "way of the future".  And that they have certainly been working on this for a very long time.  It isn't something that was announced to them the day that Schwab wanted to turn it on.  They are also more than just the "messenger".  A messenger doesn't have to make 5 patches in less than 4 weeks.  Clearly these changes require changes to all three parties.

    @M2AZ It is highly unlikely that the CEO is even going to see your post.

    As for the rest here is my opinion.  Quicken Windows development seems to be incapable thoroughly testing new systems.  Do these ring a bell, Sync to Mobile/Web, Online Bills, Quicken Bill Manager, the change over from Express Web Connect using FDS to Express Web Connect using QCS, Express Web Connect + for Capital One, and now Express Web Connect + for Schwab.

    But what all of these do tell me is there is zero chance that they going to back track on this decision no matter what the problems are.  And in fact, I would agree with that at this point.  Even if they could somehow convince Schwab to go back to Direct Connect, which seriously doubt they can, switching back wouldn't instantly fix things, because of the fact that people are now "mostly in" to the new system, and nothing is going to magically clean up their data.  But even more to point Schwab has made it very clear this is their future, if they backed out of it now, sooner or later they do this all again.  Maybe it would be better the next time, maybe not.

    I might also add that there seems to be much less problems on the Mac side, what's more their latest release announced that they are now supporting several more "non-standard broker like" investment firms using this method and intend to bring more online over time.
    Signature:
    (I'm always using the latest Quicken Windows Premier subscription version)
    This is my website: http://www.quicknperlwiz.com/
  • garysmith87
    garysmith87 Member ✭✭✭✭
    I didn't say Quicken isn't ALSO to blame.  

    But to say that only Quicken is to blame is also completely wrong and misguided.  Once again, Schwab initiated the change.  Schwab created a deadline for their company and users, with little regard or care if Quicken got the aggregation of their data correct or not.

    As usual, with all these banks...they have little to no interest in getting any of their data into any third party aggregator or with Quicken.  They feel you can just as easily use their website and get any account information you need from there.  And they're probably right in that regard.  Why should they have any real interest in getting some third party to work with them?  

    Even today, Schwab seems to care little about their Quicken users and whether they actually get transactions downloaded into Quicken.  And to add insult to injury, they don't even allow creation of a .qfx file from their own website that users could Web Connect with Quicken.  That's not even an option..so that's how little Schwab cares whether this gets fixed or not.  

    And @M2AZ is completely misguided in that he solely blames Quicken and believes that somehow magically that either party (Schwab or Quicken) can roll back to the previous download method...when indeed that is on Schwab and not Quicken at all.  I don't understand where he thinks that could even happen.  

    What irks me even more is that he throws out his credentials...yet really has zero clue because his statements are wrong and his demands are unreasonable or worse, unattainable. 
  • ysg26
    ysg26 Member ✭✭
    I'm a 30+ year Schwab client and as such I have a preferential number to contact them. I talked to a lady at their IT Department today. I will not doxx her. She was incensed and angry at Quicken for the current situation because, she said, they were given "ample" notice to implement the change and had the Schwab IT people working with them to prepare for it. Although she didn't say so explicitly, I understood that the Schwab people are no longer cooperating, are mad at Quicken and told me in no uncertain terms to take it up with Quicken. I still have a couple of months on my subscription but renewal is in serious doubt as I look for an alternative.
  • garysmith87
    garysmith87 Member ✭✭✭✭
    So...just like that you'll believe what Schwab tells you?  I'm not doubting that both sides had ample time to implement this...but it's not just Quicken.

    Intuit's Mint has the same exact issues...so it's the aggregation process as a whole that's all messed up.  And Quicken gets it's aggregated data from Intuit...so what would you like Quicken to do?

    And to be honest, banks lie all the time about it being "a Quicken problem".  This shifts and diverts the blame to Quicken and gets you off the phone with them.  

    And finally, do you know for sure that other aggregators (such as Yodlee, Plaid and others) aren't having the exact same issue as Intuit?  Because if they are, then alternative software won't help you one bit. 
  • ysg26
    ysg26 Member ✭✭
    Yes, just like that. I've been with Schwab for 30+years because they are a professional and reliable company, as opposed to a cash-starved Quicken that gets sold around from hedge fund to hedge fund
  • M2AZ
    M2AZ Member ✭✭
    I am not throwing out my credentials to act like I am someone important. My point was to say that I do know a lot about this subject, and have decades of experience with major platform integrations, including HR and payroll systems (where security is much more complex than what is happening with "Web Connect".

    Quicken controlled this roll-out, not Schwab. Assuming Schwab made a hard stop date (per your comment), Quicken did not have to deploy if they weren't ready. If it didn't work, and it was being forced by Schwab, then Quicken should have informed the users and let us decide if we wanted to go manual and wait for product stabilization, or be a test subject knowing that bugs were likely. Subscription prices pay for a product to work. Yes, bugs happen, but ongoing for month 2 now, is a bit extensive.

    I also had several discussions with Schwab IT about this, and yes they have had some bugs (and no one stated they are not to blame), but it was Quicken that rolled this out to end users. Schwab is not going to test how the new interface works with Quicken.
  • jl747
    jl747 SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2021
    Here is a FAQ from Schwab about Third Party Access.


    Quicken Windows Premier (Subscription) - R39.23 -Windows 10 Pro


  • Chris_QPW
    Chris_QPW Member ✭✭✭✭
    @garysmith87 I'm sorry I misread your post.

    M2AZ said:
    Quicken controlled this roll-out, not Schwab. Assuming Schwab made a hard stop date (per your comment), Quicken did not have to deploy if they weren't ready. If it didn't work, and it was being forced by Schwab, then Quicken should have informed the users and let us decide if we wanted to go manual and wait for product stabilization, or be a test subject knowing that bugs were likely. Subscription prices pay for a product to work. Yes, bugs happen, but ongoing for month 2 now, is a bit extensive.
    Personally, I believe that Quicken Windows developers/management always way overestimate their ability to put things like this out, and way underestimate the problems that are going to crop up.

    And once they start something like this, they feel that there isn't anything left to do but power through it even if that is going to cause some of their customers problems.  And this attitude was born at Intuit.  I think one should understand that the starting company was in fact the Quicken department at Intuit for the most part.

    I really feel bad for some of the people at Quicken Inc though because it is clear that a lot of them really care about this and are trying their best.

    And tell you something else I would feel a lot better about this if I felt that the direction that the financial institutions are now headed was going to improve over time, but I have big doubts about that.

    Instead standardizing on a protocol like OFX they have standardized on "aggregators".  To me as a programmer the best solution is the simplest.  What they are going to is the most complex possible.

    Yes, if you are stuck with aggregation then what they are going to get standards like OAuth2 to get rid of the usernames and passwords stored on the aggregator's servers is a good thing, but there is no way you can compare this to OFX/Direct Connect.

    Direct Connect:
    Quicken -> Financial institution's OFX server

    Express Web Connect (+):
    Quicken -> QCS (Quicken Connection Services) -> Intuit servers -> Financial institution's website

    And BTW before the start of the year QCS wasn't in that flow.
    So why is it there now?

    The main reason given is "to be proactive on knowing about problems and getting them fixed".  Think about what that statement means.  It means that Intuit wasn't monitoring and fixing problems as they came up.  Instead Quicken Inc had to depend on its customers to report problems, and they found that not acceptable, so they put themselves in between so they can monitor it.

    I think there is another reason though too.  Quicken Connections Services is just another name for Sync to Mobile/Web.  If you think about the Sync to Mobile/Web flow it already had to have a connection to the Intuit servers to do the update when only using Mobile/Web.  So, why not just use that same flow for Express Web Connect?

    The problem here is that would be great of Sync to Mobile/Web was rock solid, but it isn't.
    I have never used Sync to Mobile/Web in my real data file because even a .01% corruption rate of my data file isn't acceptable to me, but is seems to be to Quicken Inc.

    For this reason, and the fact that Express Web Connect has always been flaky, I have either moved off of financial institutions or switched to manual entry for accounts that have infrequent transactions.

    I would certainly not have my main investment accounts on Express Web Connect +.  I'm not with Schwab, but for me given that this was going to happen I would have one of these choices.
    1. Manually enter transactions.
    2. Quit using Quicken.
    3. Move my investments to a different brokerage.
    In the past I would pretty much move to a different financial institution as the first choice, but I'm far less dependent on Quicken these days, what's more it is getting harder and harder to find one that is great with Quicken.  And also, these days other things are more important to me in exactly what the financial institution provides.
    Signature:
    (I'm always using the latest Quicken Windows Premier subscription version)
    This is my website: http://www.quicknperlwiz.com/
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