Remove shares - security not listed in transaction window dropdown list

John Blaustein

Hi...

I have a Schwab account which I track with Quicken. The account includes Treasury Notes. When a US Treasury Note matures, the funds go into cash in the account, but the shares remain in Quicken and have to be manually removed. (I have seen other posts here about this.) Typically, I go to my Schwab account in Quicken, click Enter Transactions, select Remove - Shares Removed, then select the T-Note from the Security Name dropdown list. For some reason, the T-Note I'm trying to remove today is not listed in the long list of securities. There are several other T-Notes listed, both past and current, but not the one I'm trying to remove. In my Security List, none of the T-Notes are hidden.

I should note that when I click Holdings in my account, the T-Note in question is there. It is only when trying to remove it that I'm having trouble. When I manually compare my holdings in Quicken with my Schwab account online, everything is in sync except this on T-Note--it's no longer in my online account, but it is still in my Quicken register.

I have run Validate and Super Validate and the problem remains.

I'd sure appreciate some help here.

Thanks!

John

q_lurker

John Blaustein said:

Thanks, q_lurker.

If I look at my Security List, this T-Note is not listed. … 

The security is behaving as if it is hidden, but you say it is not?  Actually, you say none of the ones you see are hidden. Is the box at the bottom of the security list checked to show hidden securities?  

John Blaustein

Problem solved. User error--me! It turns out that T-Note was Hidden. When I clicked Show Hidden, there it was. And of course I could then remove the shares.

Thanks again, q_lurker.

q_lurker

What Security Type is associated with the problematic note?  It should be something other than Market Index. 

John Blaustein

Thanks, q_lurker.

If I look at my Security List, this T-Note is not listed. The other T-Notes are listed as either Bonds or US T-Bill. The ONLY place I see this T-Note is in the Holdings list and I'm trying to delete it from that list because (of course) it is screwing up my balance. If I right-click the entry in Holdings and click Edit, it shows Type is Bond. I changed it to US T-Note, but I still don't see it in the Remove dropdown. Also, if I try to delete it from the Holding list, I get a message that it can't be removed because it is used in transactions.

q_lurker

John Blaustein said:

Thanks, q_lurker.

If I look at my Security List, this T-Note is not listed. … 

The security is behaving as if it is hidden, but you say it is not?  Actually, you say none of the ones you see are hidden. Is the box at the bottom of the security list checked to show hidden securities?  

John Blaustein

Problem solved. User error--me! It turns out that T-Note was Hidden. When I clicked Show Hidden, there it was. And of course I could then remove the shares.

Thanks again, q_lurker.

Tom Young

"...the funds go into cash in the account..."

You don't say what Quicken "action" is associated with the transaction, but this whole situation, including the fact that the security in question is "hidden", seems like some sort of programming error on Quicken's  part.

Logically the process, the one you'd follow if you were entering this transaction manually, would be a "Bonds Sold" action, which would put the cash in the Account and remove the security from you Holdings, followed by hiding the security, if you're so inclined. It appears Quicken is using some other action - a deposit, maybe - and then hiding the security, and that's it, forcing you to somehow get rid of the security in you Account.

I'd tell Quicken that this part of their programming needs some tweaking.

John Blaustein

Tom,

I have seen posts about how Quicken handles T-bill transactions, but my issue was simply because I didn't look at hidden securities.

I have an investment advisor who buys and sells securities in this account. All transactions are entered automatically when I connect to Schwab and download transactions. I am not manually entering the transactions using actions. When a T-bill matures, the cash balance increases by the amount of the T-bill. At that point, the T-bill shares should be removed by Quicken, but they aren't. I have to manually remove the shares. This is easy--unless I screw-up and forget to look at hidden securities! My mistake. I don't do this often, and I'm not sure how the T-bill became hidden. When q_lurker suggested I look at hidden securities, the rest was easy.

When a T-bill matures, Quicken should show the cash increase AND remove the shares, but it doesn't. As I said, there are other posts addressing that. Maybe that will be fixed at some point.

Thanks.

John

Tom Young

"All transactions are entered automatically when I connect to Schwab and download transactions. I am not manually entering the transactions using actions. "

Right, I understand all that and simply pointing out that the downloading process itself should be relieving you of any need to do anything.

John Blaustein

"Right, I understand all that and simply pointing out that the downloading process itself should be relieving you of any need to do anything."

I agree 100%, and that's the point made in previous posts about T-bills. Maybe Quicken will address this in the future.

q_lurker

It absolutely sounds to me as if Schwab is in error for not downloading a “sale” of the bond (t-note, t-bill, etc.) when it matures. It is not Quicken’s responsibility to imagine what transaction took place in the real world. Nor do I believe that the program ‘hid’ the security. Never have heard of that occurring. I don’t believe the download communication has that ability either. 

John Blaustein

I'm not familiar enough with how Schwab or Quicken works to know why a maturing T-bill isn't handled properly in Quicken. I'm not pointing fingers.

As for the hidden security, I'm sure I did that at some point. User error--me.

Tom Young

@q_lurker

It seems to me that Quicken has to be at fault here.  I haven't held any bonds in Schwab for many years so I can't look at how a maturity is reported at their site, but I have to believe the elements necessary for putting together a proper Bond Sold action action are available.  A sell of their money market fund shows up on their site as

which has all the elements for a regular Sold action, so I'd think a bond maturity would also.  I guess one element of confusion might be a final interest payment that accompanies the maturity amount, but since Schwab has to prepare a 1099-INT that includes that final interest payment, it has to be broken out somewhere.

@John Blaustein

Would you mind posting a picture of how the maturity ends up in the account's "History" page, just to shed some light on who might be dropping the ball?

John Blaustein

I'd prefer not to share any details of my account. Sorry.

q_lurker

@Tom Young 

It seems to me that Quicken has to be at fault here.  I haven't held any bonds in Schwab for many years so I can't look at how a maturity is reported at their site, but I have to believe the elements necessary for putting together a proper Bond Sold action action are available.

I have no doubt that Schwab has the information.  The question is: What are they sending to Quicken -- especially since their changeover to EWC+?  How (what syntax) are they sending it?  How is Quicken interpreting it?   Yes, it could be that Quicken is receiving but not correctly handling the info. 

Tom Young

@q_lurker

The EWC process is one I've never understood in any detailed way.  It's been described, maybe incorrectly or incompletely, as the financial institution allowing the aggregator to log into the system as one of their customers, and providing the aggregators information as to where to find the information they're seeking.

I don't see why Schwab would somehow withhold all the information needed for proper coding of bond maturities as the information needed is pretty much the same as a sale of a stock,  So that suggests to me the problem in on the Quicken side.

I bought one T-Bill for with a maturity of 11/10/22, so when it matures I can look at the information presented by Schwab on the account history page.

q_lurker

Tom Young said:

@q_lurker

The EWC process is one I've never understood in any detailed way.  It's been described, maybe incorrectly or incompletely, as the financial institution allowing the aggregator to log into the system as one of their customers, and providing the aggregators information as to where to find the information they're seeking.
... 

That is essentially correct, although with this new EWC+ protocol, the aggregator is not logging in "as the customer"; rather the customer has OK'd that the FI can share information with the aggregator using a uniquely coded account token not in any way related to the actual FI account info.  That token is in use for (approved for) a relatively short period (months) compared to the life-span that users maintain the same account number and password.  At the end of that short period, the customer has to approve the FI and aggregator communication again and a new token is agreed upon by the FI and aggregator.   

I don't see why Schwab would somehow withhold all the information needed for proper coding of bond maturities as the information needed is pretty much the same as a sale of a stock,  So that suggests to me the problem in on the Quicken side.      

I am not suggesting they are withholding.  With this new EWC+ communication, it appears all the prior language (OFX/QFX) has been scrapped and replaced with a different language.  While I suspect the communication about a stock sale is being understood, it appears not to be the case with respect to this situation for a T-Note maturing.  Schwab says "asdinf" to the aggregator who repeats it to Quicken and Quicken says "Does not compute.  I'll ignore it." 

I bought one T-Bill for with a maturity of 11/10/22, so when it matures I can look at the information presented by Schwab on the account history page.

It is not going to be an issue of what is on the Schwab website.  There is no screen-scraping with this protocol.  As we converse about this, it would not surprise me if Schwab is sending some transaction type like a "Bond Matured" and Quicken doesn't know what to do with that since they are used to getting that same information through a different "Security Sold" instruction.

@John Blaustein -- Not meaning to hi-jack your thread.  Hope this stuff proves of some value to you and others.  I also claim no expertise on this communication/download stuff.  Just trying to air out what I think I know.     

John Blaustein

@q_lurker -- you aren't hi-jacking my thread at all. <g> You helped me identify why I wasn't seeing the T-bill in my security list -- it was hidden because I didn't use the Show Hidden checkbox. I'm interested in the discussion, so I'm glad you've added the details you did.

Tom Young

q_lurker said:

That is essentially correct, although with this new EWC+ protocol, the aggregator is not logging in "as the customer"; rather the customer has OK'd that the FI can share information with the aggregator using a uniquely coded account token not in any way related to the actual FI account info.

Yes, I do understand the "token" aspect - that's the source of the "more secure" claim of FI's dropping DC - but the focus here is on the data collection aspect, or lack of data collection.  So I elided the "connection" aspect of EWC+.

q_lurker said:

It is not going to be an issue of what is on the Schwab website.  There is no screen-scraping with this protocol. 

Yes, Schwab was very clear in their post about the change that they would not allow screen scraping, but if I can see something that exists on a user-facing screen then I know that information is somewhere available in their system.

q_lurker said:

As we converse about this, it would not surprise me if Schwab is sending some transaction type like a "Bond Matured" and Quicken doesn't know what to do with that since they are used to getting that same information through a different "Security Sold" instruction.

That's the crux of the matter.  It's not a matter of what Schwab "sends" since, as I understand it, the aggregator decides what it wants to "pull" from the FI's site.  It's not clear if the aggregator or Quicken (the company) needs to message that data into something that the program can understand.  So it seems to me that either (Quicken/Intuit) failed to select the correct information or failed to write a script that translates it into a Bonds Sold action.

I'm sure that my bond's maturity at Schwab will fall into line with the picture I posted above, with column headings of Date, Action, Details, Symbol, Description, Quantity, Price, Fees & Comm, and Amount.  These are the headings used for every transaction that takes place at Schwab and generally Quicken can properly report them.  What I don't know and probably will not know with this bond is if any sort of amortizations somehow throw a monkey wrench into the works. 

q_lurker

Tom Young said:

...

That's the crux of the matter.  It's not a matter of what Schwab "sends" since, as I understand it, the aggregator decides what it wants to "pull" from the FI's site.  ... 

My vision was the FI choosing what to send as authorized by the user and how to present that info, not the aggregator reaching in and pulling data (as the screen scraper model operated). 

Hopefully, your bond's maturity will shed some light. 

Tom Young

q_lurker said:

Hopefully, your bond's maturity will shed some light. 

I don't think it will tell us anything about Pull or Push, or if Quicken is receiving correct information or not, that's all still in the black box.  But it will shed some light on how Schwab reports T-Bill maturities to its customers so I can see if all the information needed to create a Bond Sold action is readily available and that there are no confusing elements that make the creation impossible.  I'm also going to see if the matured bond is hidden when the download occurs.  That does seem like something that's on Quicken.

Tom Young

My T-Bill purchased thorough Schwab matured today.  At Schwab's site, in the account's history, it showed up as:

On its face it appears that Schwab recognizes the maturity in the form of a cash inflow of $1,000.  (The "Amount" column reflects actual cash entering or leaving the account.)  The second entry seems to be the removal of the security.  There is nothing here that explicitly recognizes the $1,000 cash is comprised of basis and interest, though clearly Schwab knows all this and has recorded these elements somewhere in its system.

The download into Quicken for this looked like:

The first item, the one marked "Accepted" is essentially the same information as shown on Schawb's first line noted "Full Redemption Adj."  It entered as a Deposit action without a Category or a Security, though the CUSIP is there on Schwab's site and matches the CUSIP for the security created with the original buy.  The error box for the second entry, also a Deposit action, is Quicken's response that there's no dollar amount listed, though Quicken eventually accepts it as a $0 Deposit, if you click on Accept enough times.

The download and acceptance to the two entries did not result in the security being Hidden in Quicken.

and I was able to remove it.

Before entering the Removed action a Securities Comparison Mismatch window showed up, as you might expect:

As I understand it in this particular instance, (having never purchased and sold T-Bills through Schwab), appropriate real accounting entries for this maturity would be a Sold action of "10" of the securities at a price of $99.978 (essentially a reversal of the original Bought action, for no gain or loss), followed by an IntInc action to make up the difference between the cash brought in by the "sale" and the $1,000 actually deposited in the account.  What I don't know is if Schwab is capturing and amortizing premium or discount created in the (second market) purchases and if Schwab is accruing interest as the bond matures, but it seems like they must be doing at least the latter for capital gain/loss and interest income reporting purposes, and that information is available.

I'm still guessing that Quicken's at fault here but you can't prove it by the customer-facing information.

q_lurker

@Tom Young - I'd be interested if you could locate those two transactions in the "Cloud Sync File" that can be accessed through Help / Contact Support / Log Files.  I see my Chase CC transactions in that file subsequent to their move to EWC+.  I don't know if Schwab transactions show up there.  That might better identify what Quicken is receiving, though since it is going through Intuit I have no clarity that it shows what Schwab is actually sending.

Tom Young

@q_lurker

The log appears to show that Schwab is sending exactly what Quicken is entering into the Downloaded Transactions area, assuming nothing is being massaged in between:

"accountId":"346403530489022977","postedOn":"2022-11-10","payee":"US TREASURY BILXXX**MATURED**","coa":{"type":"UNCATEGORIZED","id":"0"},"amount":1000.0000,"state":"CLEARED","matchState":"NOT_MATCHED","knownCategoryId":"7000100000","cpData":{"id":"B07D03F45834652681C8C604AB4E185E594396E36C0585B02838C4EAAB6E0389","postedOn":"2022-11-10","txnOn":"2022-11-10","payee":"US TREASURY BILXXX**MATURED**","memo":"US TREASURY BILXXX**MATURED**","amount":1000.0000,"inferredPayee":"US Treasury","inferredCoa":{"type":"UNCATEGORIZED","id":"0"},"cpCategoryId":"1901"},"type":"CASH_FLOW"},{"id":"352785697355347968","createdAt":"2022-11-10T18:11:02Z","modifiedAt":"2022-11-10T18:11:02Z","source":"QCS_REFRESH","accountId":"346403530489022977","postedOn":"2022-11-10","payee":"US TREASURY BILXXX**MATURED**","coa":{"type":"UNCATEGORIZED","id":"0"},"amount":0.0000,"state":"CLEARED","matchState":"NOT_MATCHED","knownCategoryId":"7000100000","cpData":{"id":"A2ACF24A3CB28F189D0E5D2CC94238E2E6C726B53FE6347B334C64897DD3ECC8","postedOn":"2022-11-10","txnOn":"2022-11-10","payee":"US TREASURY BILXXX**MATURED**","memo":"US TREASURY BILXXX**MATURED**","amount":0.0000,"inferredPayee":"US Treasury","inferredCoa":{"type":"UNCATEGORIZED","id":"0"},"cpCategoryId":"1901"},"type":"CASH_FLOW"}],"metaData":{"currentPage":1,"pageSize":3,"totalSize":3,"limit":500,"offset":4,"asOf":"2022-11-10T23:23:54Z","lastRefId":"352785697355347968"}}

q_lurker

FWIW, I would parse the data provided as follows.  Not at all sure what a lot of it means.
First Transaction

"accountId":"346403530489022977",
"postedOn":"2022-11-10",
"payee":"US TREASURY BILXXX**MATURED**",
"coa":{"type":"UNCATEGORIZED","id":"0"},
"amount":1000.0000,
"state":"CLEARED",
"matchState":"NOT_MATCHED",
"knownCategoryId":"7000100000",
"cpData":
{
  "id":"B07D03F45834652681C8C604AB4E185E594396E36C0585B02838C4EAAB6E0389",
  "postedOn":"2022-11-10",
  "txnOn":"2022-11-10",
  "payee":"US TREASURY BILXXX**MATURED**",
  "memo":"US TREASURY BILXXX**MATURED**",
  "amount":1000.0000,
  "inferredPayee":"US Treasury",
  "inferredCoa":{"type":"UNCATEGORIZED","id":"0"},
  "cpCategoryId":"1901"
},
"type":"CASH_FLOW"
},

SECOND TRANSACTION

{
"id":"352785697355347968",
"createdAt":"2022-11-10T18:11:02Z",
"modifiedAt":"2022-11-10T18:11:02Z",
"source":"QCS_REFRESH",
"accountId":"346403530489022977",
"postedOn":"2022-11-10",
"payee":"US TREASURY BILXXX**MATURED**",
"coa":{"type":"UNCATEGORIZED","id":"0"},
"amount":0.0000,
"state":"CLEARED",
"matchState":"NOT_MATCHED",
"knownCategoryId":"7000100000","
cpData":
{
  "id":"A2ACF24A3CB28F189D0E5D2CC94238E2E6C726B53FE6347B334C64897DD3ECC8",
  "postedOn":"2022-11-10",
  "txnOn":"2022-11-10",
  "payee":"US TREASURY BILXXX**MATURED**",
  "memo":"US TREASURY BILXXX**MATURED**",
  "amount":0.0000,
  "inferredPayee":"US Treasury",
  "inferredCoa":{"type":"UNCATEGORIZED","id":"0"},
  "cpCategoryId":"1901"
},
"type":"CASH_FLOW"
}
],

OTHER DATA

"metaData":
{
"currentPage":1,
"pageSize":3,
"totalSize":3,
"limit":500,
"offset":4,
"asOf":"2022-11-10T23:23:54Z",
"lastRefId":"352785697355347968"
}
}