Quicken download wrong bond price

Stevemd

Quicken is consistently downloading the wrong price for a Treasury TIPS bond that I own. Quicken's bond pricing appears to lack the inflation adjustment factor for TIPS.

I have looked at the logs and the price that is downloaded from my brokerage (in OFX Log) is correct. However, this is being overridden by a price downloaded directly from Quicken (https://services.quicken.com/v2/investments/securities) that can be seen in the Cloud Sync Log.

I have deselected quote downloads for this bond in the Security list but it continues to download them anyway.

I have also disabled cloud sync under Preference/Mobile & Web.

How can I stop Quicken from downloading incorrect prices for this security?

Tom Young

This strikes me as very strange.  Quicken's quote provider always has, as far as I know, provided quotes for securities with ticker symbols, and most bonds - TIPS included - don't have ticker symbols.  Accordingly bond quotes, almost always, have to come from the broker.  There was a post not too long ago by another user

https://community.quicken.com/discussion/7923736/correct-accounting-for-tips-in-quicken-partial-solution-but-help-needed

complaining that one broker downloaded the correct price for TIPS while a different broker, with the same TIPS, did not.

Maybe you can post a picture of the portion of the OFX log where you believe you're seeing the correct price?  As far as I know that OFX information should be providing the (correct) pricing.  Since I don't "sync" - too risky in my opinion - I can't look at a CloudSync Log, but I'd think that incorrect price should be coming out of your own file, perhaps because the OFX log isn't formatted correctly?

Stevemd

It's definitely downloading the incorrect bond price from quicken.com using the CUSIP (912810FS2). Here's the lines from the cloud sync log with the incorrect price of $100.78125. (I've replaced the ID#s with XXXX.):

<!-- ***** RECV from https://services.quicken.com/v2/investments/securities?ids=XXXXX at 18:51:49 on 20221206 ***** -->
{"resources":[{"id":"XXXXX","createdAt":"2022-11-21T21:30:55Z","modifiedAt":"2022-12-07T02:30:59Z","ownerId":"XXXXX","securityId":"912810FS2","securityIdType":"CUSIP","name":"UST INFL IDX 2%01/26INFL INDEX DUE 01/15/26","securityType":"BOND","currentUnitPrice":100.78125000,"currentUnitPriceDate":"2022-12-06T00:00:00Z"}


And here's the lines from the OFX log with the the correct price of $151.8502980:

5:EST]</DEBTINFO><DEBTINFO><SECINFO><SECID><UNIQUEID>912810FS2<UNIQUEIDTYPE>CUSIP</SECID><SECNAME>912810FS2 UNITED STATES TREAS BDS 2.00000% 01/15/2026<TICKER>912810FS2<UNITPRICE>151.8502980<DTASOF>20221203033001.000[-5:EST]<CURRENCY><CURRATE>1.000<CURSYM>USD </CURRENCY></SECINFO><PARVALUE>1000.00<DEBTTYPE>COUPON<DEBTCLASS>TREASURY<COUPONRT>0002.00000<DTCOUPON>20221203033001.000[-5:EST]<COUPONFREQ>OTHER<DTCALL>20221203033001.000[-

q_lurker

I am certainly not an expert on the EWC+ protocol, so take these comments with a grain of salt.  

As I look at EWC+ transactions in the CloudSync Log file, I do not see any reference to the original source of the information.  That is, I am getting CC transactions from Chase in that protocol but nowhere do I find a specific reference to Chase.  The Send to / RECV from links are various quicken.com links even though Chase is the true source.  That makes sense because Intuit is serving as the aggregator and the Quicken servers are requesting the info from the aggregator rather than the original source.  It also to an extent helps security because someone intercepting the communication would not be led to the original FI. 

In your case, even though you see the bad price out of a services.quicken.com source, that doesn't make Quicken the source of the values.  Indeed, I do not believe Quicken contracts to provide bond prices for any bonds.  You did not indicate your FI for those bonds, but I would guess that it is either Schwab or BofA since the data seems to be flowing in the EWC+ protocol.     

Tom Young

It would be helpful to know what Financial Institution (FI) is involved here.  I guess some FIs allow for both Direct Connect or one flavor or the other of EWC, but I wouldn't think you'd be getting both.

As far as I know nobody here really has a good handle on how EWC/EWC+ really works beyond some hand-waving generalities, at least as far as how information is actually obtained.  If I had to make a guess as to the different dollar amounts you're seeing, my guess is that the "price" and the "factor" are both maintained at the FI and the OFX information is, properly, using both amounts to calculate the <UNITPRICE>, but that the EWC is pulling only the "price" number because whoever set up the script/program or made the ask of the FI of what information is necessary didn't understand what they were doing.

The current Index Ratio for the particular bond is on the order of 1.5, and 1.5 times that $100.78125 pretty much comes back to your $151.XX figure.

If you tell us the FI involved here then perhaps a moderator could add some insight.

q_lurker

@Stevemd
Some additional follow-up questions -- 

• Do you own this same bond two different financial institutions?  (I am assuming yes, at this stage.)
• If so, does the Quicken security name correspond to one or the other of the security names used by a specific FI and matching one of the names I highlighted below from your log data?
• Can you download from those FIs one at a time (starting from the transaction list rather than the One Step Update)? This should show what FI is providing what info.
• I note in these log file excerpts, the dates for the current prices are different -- 12/03 vs 12/06.  Is that a factor in the overwrite you are seeing?  That is, does the 12/03 price of $151+ still show in the price history with the 12/06 price of $100+ only overwriting as a newer price? 

From OFX Log
<DEBTINFO>
<SECINFO>
   <SECID><UNIQUEID>912810FS2<UNIQUEIDTYPE>CUSIP</SECID>
   <SECNAME>912810FS2 UNITED STATES TREAS BDS 2.00000% 01/15/2026
   <TICKER>912810FS2
   <UNITPRICE>151.8502980
   <DTASOF>20221203033001.000[-5:EST]
   <CURRENCY><CURRATE>1.000<CURSYM>USD </CURRENCY>
</SECINFO>

<PARVALUE>1000.00
<DEBTTYPE>COUPON
<DEBTCLASS>TREASURY
<COUPONRT>0002.00000
<DTCOUPON>20221203033001.000[-5:EST]
<COUPONFREQ>OTHER
<DTCALL>20221203033001.000[-

From CloudSync Log
{"resources":
[
{
  "id":"XXXXX",
  "createdAt":"2022-11-21T21:30:55Z",
  "modifiedAt":"2022-12-07T02:30:59Z",
  "ownerId":"XXXXX",
  "securityId":"912810FS2",
  "securityIdType":"CUSIP",
  "name":"UST INFL IDX 2%01/26INFL INDEX DUE 01/15/26",
  "securityType":"BOND",
  "currentUnitPrice":100.78125000,
  "currentUnitPriceDate":"2022-12-06T00:00:00Z"
}

Tom Young

If we are dealing with the same bond in two different FIs then your situation is entirely analogous to the situation described in the link to a somewhat similar question I posted above.  The last price posted, from whatever source, for a given security is the one that you end up seeing in your file, everywhere.

Stevemd

Sorry I was offline for a couple days. To answer the questions:

1) I uploaded an OFX log and cloud sync log from different days. That's what I had remaining on my computer at the time I created my post, but I have verified the same price discrepancy occurs when they are from the same day.

2) The bond is only held in one financial institution (Fidelity). The bond price from the OFX file came from the Fidelity section (and is correct)

2) I assume the info in the cloud sync log comes from Quicken's quote download. Quicken's help article (https://www.quicken.com/support/how-update-security-prices) says that they give their quote downloads priority over the price reported by brokers.

q_lurker

To confirm if the bad undesired price is coming from the Quicken sources, you should be able to uncheck the box in the Security List (Ctrl-Y) for that bond (security).  

You could also still see what takes place through the straight update from Fidelity, and then separately from a download quotes action.  

Stevemd

I have unchecked it in the security list but it continues to download. The funny thing is that other TIPS held in the same account at Fidelity (and also unchecked) are not shown as downloading in the cloud sync log.

When I look in the online center, all the prices in the Fidelity section are correct.

Stevemd

Fidelity uses direct connect, so I don't understand why that security would even be included in the cloud sync log unless it's part of Quicken's quote download. Isn't the cloud sync just used for express web connect?

Tom Young

There have been unverified rumors the Fidelity is going to switch over to EWC+ and maybe people seeing what you're seeing are the source of that rumor.

Why don't you call Fidelity and ask.  If they say that some testing along those lines is going on then tell them about the bad price, too.

q_lurker

I can't speak to all that goes through the CloudSync log file.  I am seeing the new Express Web Connect + (EWC+) go through, but that does not apply to any of my investment accounts.  I don't have any old-style EWC setups.  I do NOT find any of the 140+ security prices I update through Quicken's service referenced in that file. 

So I too am at a loss as to why you are getting that type of information showing in that file. 

Stevemd

Weird. I will investigate more when I get home. Q_lurker, what did you use to parse/format the log files so they are readable (or did you do it manually)?

q_lurker

Manual effort.  A lot of matching up quotation marks and deciding commas were frequently data separators (line breaks for my parsing). 

Stevemd

Hi q_lurker,

You were correct the entire time. I actually did hold this bond in two different accounts--one at Schwab and one at Fidelity. Schwab is downloading the incorrect price (not adjusted by the inflation factor).

Do you know if this should be reported to Schwab or Quicken?

Tom Young

@Stevemd

I'd contact Quicken as they are the ones that make the request of the Financial Institution as to what information they need.

q_lurker

Stevemd said:

Hi q_lurker,

You were correct the entire time. I actually did hold this bond in two different accounts--one at Schwab and one at Fidelity. Schwab is downloading the incorrect price (not adjusted by the inflation factor).

Good.  Are you aware you can choose to update from one financial institution at a time?  If you then get Schwab first and Fidelity second, does the preferred Fidelity price override the previously downloaded Schwab price?  (Indeed, I don't know enough.  Does the same adjustment factor apply to the same bond in both accounts, or is there a unique adjustment depending on when or for how much the bond was bought?)  Playing that first/second sequencing card might or might not be worth the trouble.

Do you know if this should be reported to Schwab or Quicken?

As I understand it, Quicken is only requesting financial data your approved for Schwab to release.  A very generic request just as your authorization was very generic.  It is Schwab's decision to send whatever price/unit they deem applicable.  But unless Schwab understands how Quicken is using that data, they can't make a very knowledgeable decision as to sending the raw price or the adjusted price.  So  I come around to suggesting you report it to both enforcing the message that they need to talk to each other.  (Bear in mind, Intuit is also in this mix.  The data flows from Schwab to Intuit as the aggregator of data to Quicken to your computer.)

Stevemd

Thanks. I think I'll try reporting to Schwab first as it appears to be their error. Quicken doesn't deal with the inflation adjustment factor--It should be built into the bond price. TIPS are a bit esoteric in how their prices are reported and it appears the Schwab IT guys just picked up the wrong figure.

I do know how to update institutions one at a time, but I always use one step update so that would be a pain.

Tom Young

You can update (receive downloads) into Quicken Accounts "one at a time" by opening a connected Account in Quicken, clicking on the gearwheel icon in the upper right hand corner, and selecting "Update now" (Spending Accounts) or "Update Transactions" (Investment Accounts).  That will bring down information into Quicken for all Accounts that use the same UserID/Password combination, so it may not be literally "one at a time."

Go into the vault Settings and eliminate the download that includes the Fidelity Account with the good TIP price from the OSU.  Run your OSU as usual.  That will bring the bad TIP quote from Schwab into your file; that bad quote will affect that TIP price at both places in your file.  Then open the Fidelity Account that's providing the good quote and Update Transactions in that Account.  That will bring the good quote into your file, affecting the TIP price in both the Fidelity and Schwab Accounts.