Return Calcs: IP report v portfolio view returns when assets transferred between accounts
I need some help understanding the following and if there is any way around it:
- In September I did an asset transfer from one brokerage to and existing Vanguard account. Reflected this in Quicken using a transfer so shares, lots, cost basis, etc. transferred just fine within Quicken (Windows Premier). All good.
- But, doing the transfer seems to have screwed up Portfolio View return numbers for the transferred assets.
- Looking at the Portfolio View (by Security Type), I see for instance VEU showing a YTD ROI of 26.14%. However, looking up official performance online, VEU actual YTD return (realize this is slightly different from ROI) is 8.12%. In the Investment Performance Report with date set to Yearly Quicken shows VEU ROI of 7.97%, very close to official number. Similarly, for VYM, Portfolio View shows YTD ROI of 81%, official online return YTD is 22.99% and Quicken Inv Perf Report shows 22.73%.
Clearly the portfolio view can't correctly compute ROI for transferred assets. This means none of the summary total returns for the portfolio are correct either. For instance, portfolio view shows my ROI YTD of 18.12% (16.33% if I included closed lots) but IPR shows overall portfolio return of 23.52% (same accounts, same assets selected).
While I can and do mostly rely on the IPR for tracking my returns I do find Portfolio View handy for the big picture but I don't trust the numbers.
Anyway around this problem and what specifically is happening? Is Quicken annualizing the returns of the transferred assets as if they were new to me as of the date of transfer? If this was covered elsewhere sorry, I did read through a bunch of other threads first.
Comments
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If you are happy with the Investment Performance Report numbers, you can use the Avg. Annual Return (%) columns in the Portfolio views. These should be the same as the IPR numbers if the same date range, accounts, and securities are selected.
The returns are annualized in both the Portfolio view Avg. Annual Return columns and the IPR, so if you have moved securities between accounts during the year, you must include both the new and the old accounts and look at the Overall Total numbers.
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I have the same issue. I transferred securities from one existing investment account to another existing investment account using the "Shares transferred between accounts" transaction. The "Amount return YTD" and "Amount return 1 year" in the portfolio view are egregiously wrong, simply useless. This is very disappointing. I spent approx 45 minutes on a chat with Quicken. The agent tried but was unable to correct the issue. As an example, security RQN had a security price of $20.07 on Dec 31, 2023. As of Nov 30, 2024 the price is $20.48, a small gain. The portfolio view displays a loss of $40,113. This is useless.
BTW, the Quicken agent I was on the chat with, directed me to install a patch for Quicken Canada and the file was validated and repaired. These steps did not correct the incorrect returns appearing in the portfolio report.
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Note that "Amount return" is Q Canada terminology; in the US these columns would simply be "Return" unless Multicurrency support is enabled.
Is RQN RBC Target 2025 Canadian Corp BondIdxETF?
When was the transfer?
What is the share price in Quicken on the transfer date?
How many shares were transferred?
Have any shares been bought or sold since the transfer?
Was the Portfolio view set to look at the new account, the old account, or both accounts?
What Group by option was selected for the portfolio view?
All these selections will affect the "Return" calculation.
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Jim… thanks for your insights. However, finally had time to go back at this in detail today. The Portfolio View return numbers for assets transferred between accounts do not appear to be correct - even when all relevant accounts included in the view. Seems to be correct in the longer-term numbers (three year, five year). Below is a specific example. I've used three accounts in this example and one asset VEU (Vanguard international ETF). Acct #1 is the account from which I transferred shares to Acct #2 in September. Also shown is my IRA account where I've held VEU for a long time, no transfers, no buys/sells this year for a clean comparison.
Investment Performance Report (IPR)
The first set of numbers shown here are the investment performance report for VEU, sorted by account, and period set to Yearly (this year). You can see shares on 9/18/24 were transferred from Acct #1 to Acct #2. Overall performance (ROI) for the asset for the year was 10.2% - this matches Vanguard's reported YTD return of 8.38% plus including dividends received for the year. So far, so good.
Portfolio View
Now we move to the next illustration which shows a couple of Portfolio Views. In each portfolio view only the same accounts shown in the IPR are used and I've only included VEU. The first section shows a consolidated view. Note that the overall YTD ROI is shown as 37.35%, nowhere near the official Vanguard number or the IPR report number. The second section shows same but now arranged by portfolio, again using only VEU as the selected security. Note that the IRA shows the same ROI as the IPR shows - 10.22%, the correct numbers. But Acct #1 shows an ROI of -57.81% and Acct #2 shows NA for the YTD ROI. The overall ROI is again 37.35%. The bottom of the lower illustration shows Vanguard's reported performance for VEU as of today from their web site.
Summary
To me this indicates that the Portfolio View is showing incorrect numbers for YTD when assets are transferred between accounts. Am I missing something? As noted in original post I mostly rely on the ROI's shown in the Investment Performance Report so this isn't a big deal for me but it is weird and not sure why it's happening when Quicken transfers the cost basis and original purchase date of each lot when it moves shares between accounts. It should be able to produce correct ROI and return numbers within the current year in the Portfolio View. It correctly calculates in IPR, why not in Portfolio View?
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The following is further to my msg above at 5:17 pm and in reply to Jim's questions above at 5:50 pm
1) Is RQN RBC Target 2025 Canadian Corp BondIdxETF? Reply: Yes
2) When was the transfer? Reply: Nov 25, 2024
3) What is the share price in Quicken on the transfer date? Reply: $20.45
4) How many shares were transferred? Reply: 2,500
5) Have any shares been bought or sold since the transfer? Reply: No
6) Was the Portfolio view set to look at the new account, the old account, or both accounts? Reply: All investment accounts are included, which include both the transfer from and the transfer to account. Both accounts have existed for a number of years.
7) What Group by option was selected for the portfolio view? All these selections will affect the "Return" calculation. Reply: The return amount is incorrect regardless of the Group by option selected – Security, Account, Investment Goal, etc. The investment return amount in the Portfolio view is simply egregiously wrong. The program code to calculate the return amount for the Portfolio view is incorrect. Further proof of this is that Quicken reports generate a completely different result.
Incorrect calculations like this issue that are glaringly incorrect cause one to question what other return calculation errors might exist in Quicken
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Please don't call the numbers in the Investment Performance Report (IPR) "ROI", it will only cause confusion. The IPR does an annualized IRR (Internal Rate of Return) calculation, which is different.
Your IPR is subtotaled by account, not sorted. The numbers look correct. The account totals are different because they cover different periods.
Please compare your issues with the Portfolio view account level ROI numbers to this discussion from 2019. Do they amount to the same issue?
QWin Premier subscription0 -
Your issue may be related but it is somewhat different. Please let me know if this describes your situation accurately:
You started with 2,500 shares of RQN in Account A. These were worth $20.07 x 2,500 or $50,175 on 12/31/23.
On 11/25/24, you transferred all the shares to account B at $20.45 or 51,125. There were no other purchases or sales this year.
The Portfolio view Return YTD and Return 1-yr as of today show a large loss of about $40,000 regardless of how the view is subtotaled.
Do I have that right?
[adding]
I tried a simple test based on these assumptions and I do not see any issues.
Please go to Tools > Security List and click on the entry for RQN to display the Security Detail view. Click on More then Edit Price History. Review the price history to look for any wildly incorrect prices that might account for these odd return numbers.
QWin Premier subscription0 -
thanks
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Beyond the @Jim_Harman comment about the ROI you are seeing in the portfolio view not being the same as the IRR of the IPR report, there is another key factors overlooked. ROI is computed using Amount Invested. For Acct #1, that Amount Invested for the ROI (YTD) calculation should be the value of the 2000.88 shares on 12/31/23. At 56.14/share, that would be the $112,329 value. For Acct #2, I would expect the Amount Invested to be the basis value of the Shares Added transactions. But since you are seeing asterisks for that account (why I do not know), I am not sure what is happening at that stage. I suggest you customize your portfolio views to include relevant Amount Invested columns so you can better understand the numbers being presented. Amount Invested can be shown as would be applicable for a variety of time frames (YTD, 1-Yr, etc.). Basically, ROI(period) = Return(period) / Amount Invested(period).
I and many users find the Amount Invested computation to be misleading thereby making the ROI frequently misleading. Amount Invested is far more valuable for Buy and Hold investors and events such as your transfer can really throw a wrench in the works.
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Thanks for your interest regarding the portfolio view return calc error in Quicken. Further to your comments and questions, following is detailed information:
Issue: Amount Return YTD and Amount Return 1 Year calculations in the portfolio view are wrong when the "Shares Transferred Between Accounts" transaction has been used
As indicated in the security report below, as of Dec 31, 2023/Jan 1, 2024 I held 2,500 RQN shares in acct RBC 699. The value of the shares held in RBC 699 on Dec 31, 2023 @ $20.07/shr= $50,175.
These shares were transferred to account CIBC 597 1 on Nov 25, 2024. On Nov 30, 2024 the value of the 2,500 shares in account CIBC 597 1 @ $20.48/shr= $51,200. So, in reality, there is a small YTD 2024 capital gain on these 2,500 shares.
I also own RQN in account CIBC 597 4. Per the security report below, 3,000 shares were purchased in this account in Feb 2024 and April 2024. 3,300 shares were held in this account on Dec 31, 2023.
The price history report appears below. There are no anomalies.
The Amount Return YTD appearing in portfolio view is a loss of ($45,706) report for account CIBC 597 1, which is wrong. The Amount Return YTD in the portfolio view for account CIBC 597 4 is a gain of $5,592.
The issue is the return calculation in the portfolio view is wrong when securities have been transferred from one investment account to another when the "Shares Transferred Between Accounts" transaction has been used. Whereas the investment performance report generated using the "Reports" menu provides the correct result. It is clear the Portfolio view return calculations are simply wrong.
BTW, I used RQN as an example. I also transferred several other securities from account RBC 699 to account CIBC 597 1. The Amount Return YTD is also incorrect for the other securities transferred between accounts. The commonality is securities were transferred using "Shares Transferred Between Accounts" transaction.
The Portfolio view Return YTD and Return 1-yr as of today show a large loss for the transferred shares regardless of how the view is subtotaled.
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