How do I apply a negative cash balance to an investment account with simple tracking?

26@harrich

I'm using the Simple Tracking Method with Vanguard Brokerage Accounts. Downloading positions for Vanguard sets the cash position on each of my brokerage accounts to 0. For accounts with a non-zero cash balance, I update the cash balance using the Update cash balance action. This works well enough for positive cash balances.

When I enter a negative cash balance, it appears to accept the negative balance, but does not apply it to the account, i.e. the account total is unchanged. It apparently stores the negative balance since when I attempt to reenter it, it replies "No adjustment required.", but no cash balance is listed on the account, and the negative balance is not reflected int the total.

Jim_Harman

@26@harrich are you saying that if you have a Buy that has not settled yet, the new holding is included but the Settlement fund has not been reduced by the amount of the purchase and the cash balance downloads as zero?

That is certainly different from what happens in Complete mode, and I see how it would affect your asset allocation. In Complete mode, the account will have a negative cash balance until the settlement fund (VMFXX) is automatically sold to bring the balance back to zero, a day or two later.

Maybe you can adjust the balance in the settlement fund to reflect what it will be after the transaction settles rather than trying to adjust the cash balance. If that does not work, I think unless Vanguard changes what they download, your only alternative would be to keep with Complete mode.

26@harrich

Quicken Classic version R62.16, build 27.1.62.16, Windows 11 Home Version 24H2, 64-bit OS, x64-based processor.

CaliQkn

@26@harrich the issue could be that the cash amount needs to "refresh". If when you enter the negative adjustment and go out and back into the account, do you then see the correct adjusted balance?

If not, you may have found a bug in the cash adjustment function.

Chris_QPW

If you are downloading for this account in Quicken making any adjustments is futilely.

The whole point of Simple investment mode is to use the "summary section" of the downloaded transaction information for setting the cash balance and the security positions.

If you change any of this the next download would wipe it out.

Note that there is a known bug that has not been fixed with Vanguard and a few other financial institutions with retirement accounts that don't get the cash balance correctly.

Currently the only workaround is to use Complete investing mode instead, which works off of the downloaded transactions instead.

26@harrich

Thanks for your input. Having the right cash balances at the end of a day, even if they are going to disappear tomorrow, allows me to check allocations, even if they are going to be overwritten with the next update. Incidentally, if settlement is the next day, they will be overwritten with correct zero cash balances.

Jim_Harman

@Chris_QPW I have not seen reports of cash balance issues with Simple mode in Vanguard retirement accounts.

The main cash-related issue is with Fidelity NetBenefits accounts in Simple mode, where Quicken's account balance is double what it should be because the cash balance is the value of all the assets in the account rather than just the cash.

Jim_Harman

@26@harrich are you saying that if you have a Buy that has not settled yet, the new holding is included but the Settlement fund has not been reduced by the amount of the purchase and the cash balance downloads as zero?

That is certainly different from what happens in Complete mode, and I see how it would affect your asset allocation. In Complete mode, the account will have a negative cash balance until the settlement fund (VMFXX) is automatically sold to bring the balance back to zero, a day or two later.

Maybe you can adjust the balance in the settlement fund to reflect what it will be after the transaction settles rather than trying to adjust the cash balance. If that does not work, I think unless Vanguard changes what they download, your only alternative would be to keep with Complete mode.

Chris_QPW

Sorry, I meant to say the problems are in 401K/403b accounts.

26@harrich

Thanks for all the replies.

I think CaliQkn is correct that it is a bug. Positive cash balances immediately appear in the list of assets while negative cash balances do not. What's more, if I enter a negative cash balance and then re-enter the same negative cash balance Quicken tells me that it already has that balance. I've reported it to Quicken. The implementor's may have assumed all accounts are like the Fidelity brokerage accounts where the cash balance is the sum of the money market fund and the day's trade balance and would not take on a negative value under normal circumstances.

So, the question is what to do in the meantime. I am going to go with Jim_Harman's suggestion that I adjust the money market balance rather than the cash balance. Normal settlement is the next day when I will normally download correct balances.

By the way, I haven't seen the issue Jim_Harman mentions in my Fidelity accounts.

26@harrich

Sorry Jim was talking about problems in the Fidelity Netbenefits accounts rather than the Fidelity Brokerage accounts in which I have. My comment on Fidelity accounts was irrelevent.