I have 1 security with 1 lot and that lot's Cost Basis does not equal the Total Cost Basis.
I noticed recently that GE Aerospace (used to be General Electric) Total Cost Basis is $12,617.83 which is the correct amount. However, it's one lot (has always had only 1 lot) is $13,318.65 which is wrong. I know there have been 2 spin-offs. One was 1/4/2023 to GE Healthcare Technologies Inc and the other was 4/2/2024 to GE Vernova Inc. Apparently because I knew GE only had 1 lot I only looked at the total, i.e. the Collapsed Portfolio Report and not the Expanded Report. Also when I looked in at the Security (not the report) it showed the $12,617.83. Late last month I ran a full Expanded Portfolio Report and saw the difference. I have also run a Portfolio Report(s) for just GE (now showing as GE Aerospace), GE Healthcare Technologies Inc, and GE Vernova Inc.
On 1/3/2023 the day before the spin-off to GE Healthcare Technologies Inc the account was correct as both the Total General Electric (now showing as GE Aerospace) and Lot 1/29/1988 showed Cost Basis of $19,997.11
On 1/4/2023 the date of the spin-off to GE Healthcare Technologies Inc (i.e. after the spin-off has been entered) General Electric (now showing as GE Aerospace) shows Total Cost Basis of $15,823.71 which is the correct amount and Lot 1/29/1988 shows $16,220.06 which is wrong and is a difference of $396.35.
The only transactions to General Electric (now showing as GE Aerospace) until the next spin-off were dividends. Thus on 4/1/2024 the day before the spin-off to GE Vernova Inc General Electric (now showing as GE Aerospace) still shows Total Cost Basis of $15,823.71 and Lot 1/29/1988 still shows $16,220.06 which is still a difference of $396.35.
On 4/2/2024 the date of the spin-off to GE Vernova Inc (i.e. after the spin-off has been entered) General Electric (now GE Aerospace) shows Total Cost Basis of $12,617.83 which is correct and Lot 1/29/1988 shows $13,318.65 which is wrong and is a difference of $700.82. (Thus the $700.82 - $396.35 = 304.47 the additional amount with this spin-off).
$19,997.11 - $4,173.40 1/4/2024 spin-off to GE Healthcare Technologies Inc - $3,205.88 4/2/2024 spin-off to GE Vernova Inc = $12,617.83
I'm hoping I can correct this by just deleting out the 4/2/2024 RtrnCapX and the 1/4/2023 ReturnCapX transactions (in that order) hoping they only affect GE Aerospace since the GE Healthcare Technologies which was sold 4/17/2023 and the Ge Vernova are fine. Then after that re-enter the 1/4/2023 and 4/2/2024 RtrnCapX transactions (and of course look at everything each step of the way). However I don't know for sure if that will work or if I will have to delete the Ge Healthcare Technologies and the GE Verona transactions. What do you think?
Attached: GE Security Report with all actions except the dividends (1 pdf file)
Attached: 1/3/2023 & 1/4/2023 Portfolio Report, GE Healthcare Security Report, 4/1/2024 & 4/2/2024 Portfolio Report, GE Vernova Security Report (all in 1 pdf file)
Comments
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Additional thoughts:
I do not have any placeholders.
Doing a Ctrl-z from the account transaction list did not change anything regarding this security.
I know these 2 spin-offs are not taxable. Of course, when I sold GE Healthcare Technologies Inc 4/17/2023 I had a Realized Gain (Capital Gain) and I was taxed on it. Also the gain on the Cash-In-Lieu of .75 shares GE Vernova Inc is taxable.
I vaguely remember a long time ago in 2000 or the early 2000's someone in Quicken Support telling me that all spin-offs were taxable. However, I assume eventually Quicken got a better understanding of that and it was clarified and corrected. I remember entering some spin-offs in the past not using the "spin-off" but instead entering a RtrnCap (not sure if an X was used as RtrnCapX) to where it was coming from and adding Shares to where it was going. I wish I had done that this time as it would have been a lot easier in that I don't think I would be looking at all this now.
I believe I entered the 2 spin-offs as Non-Taxable.
I do remember eventually seeing an "Unrealized Gain" as a result of at least the last spin-off (& maybe the previous one also). I remember leaving it alone at first. It wanted me to enter it in Income. But I didn't think I needed it (I certainly was not being taxed on it) and I deleted it. I don't remember the amounts and I didn't write them down. I do know that the 3M Company 4/1/2024 Non-taxable spin-off to Solventum Corp is correct. The 3M Total Cost Basis and the Lot Basis are equal. Also the Solventum Corp Total Cost Basis and the Lot Basis are equal. It wanted me to enter a "Cumulative unrealized gain on spin-off shares" of "Miscellaneous: 5,574.12". I deleted it and everything I'm concerned with is fine. (3M used to have more than 1 lot but by the time of its spin-off it was down to only 1 lot.) My main purpose of having my investments on Quicken is to keep track of the Cost Basis.
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Thanks for being comprehensive in your information.
If you spinoff transactions do NOT include a MiscInc transaction, I suspect you are following suggestions I have made. That is to delete the MiscInc transaction which includes a confusing reference to Unrealized Gains. The effect of that deletion is made up by editing the RtrnCapX transaction to include both the basis and Market Value being 'spun-off' to the new company. That edited transaction would be something like below where the $1432.09 is the basis being deducted from the GE basis and the $2630.17 would be the Market Value being transferred.
The $1432.09 should match the basis used in the Add Shares for the new GEV (in this example) shares before fractional shares are sold.
The $2630.17 should be the value of the GEV shares Added by the spinoff (18.787 shares * $140/share, in this early exercise).
So does the RtrnCapX transaction agree with those considerations - particularly the amount portion?
You may be able to edit that transaction to get the numbers to be correct. You should be able to delete and re-enter that RtrnCapX transaction also, without impacting the other securities.
This is all still odd in reporting one cost basis value one place and a different value in another. I am not seeing that behavior in my R57.9 installed Quicken. What version are you currnetly running.
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I am currently on Quicken Classic Business & Personal (although I am no longer using the Business part but I've kept it). Version R57.26 and Build 27.1.57.26 I'm not sure when it went to this version but probably in the last week or two or so. I am on Windows 10 Home.
Looking back (on a little post it note) I see 6/11/23 went to R50.8, (don't have before that but do have some after that). 3/20/24 went to R55.15, 4/16/24 went to R55.26, 4/29 went to R56.29 (I don't always writ it down but often do). I don't know when I actually put through the Spin-Offs. GE Healthcare Technologies was fairly quick. GE Vernova was after May 6 but by May 9, 2024.
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Thank you!
I'm currently on Quicken Classic Business & Personal (although I am no longer using the Business part but I've kept it).
Version R57.26 and Build 27.1.57.26 I'm not sure when it went to this version but probably in the last week or two or so.
I am on Windows 10 Home.
I'm now looking back (on a little post it note) and see:
6/11/2023 it updated to R50.8 I don't have before that but I do have some more after that but did not list it all here.
3/20/2024 it updated to R55.15
4/16/2024 it updated to R55.26
4/29/2024 it updated to R56.29 I don't always write it down but often I do.
I don't know when I actually put through the Spin-Offs. GE Healthccare Technologies was fairly quick. GE Vernova was after May 6 but by May 9, 2024.
I will look more at my transactions…
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In order to know what I am now starting with before making any corrections since realizing that the Lot Cost Basis does not equal the Total Coast Basis I have taken Screen Shots of GE and GE Healthcare and GE Vernova. I will add that pdf file called "ScreenShots GE and GE Healthcare and GE Vernova"
I believe that I handled the 4/1/2024 3M Company Spin-off to Solventum in the same manner as the GE Spin-offs to GE Healthcare and to GE Vernova and thus I have 3M and Solventum Portfolios and Screen Shots of 3M and Solventum and their Security Reports. I will add that pdf file called "3M and Solventum Portfolio And ScreenShots And SecurityRpts".
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So I am not sure what is going on.
I started looking at this using the Portfolio Value & Cost Basis report. Chose YTD and Weekly interval. I already had a representation of the Vernova spinoff in this test file from who knows when. Lo and behold, between 3/30 and 4/6, the total cost basis changed. Looked like your problem.
So I deleted the transactions I had for this spinoff in this account and re-entered the Spinoff as Quicken generates it. Great all was good. The total cost basis was the same.
I then applied my preference adjustment - Delete MiscIncX and edit Mkt Valu of RtrnCapX. Still good.
So maybe some version change since Apr tweaked the results in some unexpected way (pure speculation)? I don't know. All I can suggest is to:
- backup your file,
- delete the 2 or 3 spinoff transactions for both spinoffs,
- generate new spinoffs spinning off new companies (GE-H and GE-V, maybe),
- edit the generated transactions to correctly reference the GE Vernova and GE Healthcare securities already in your file.
- delete the bogus now unused GE-V and GE-H securities.
- Review the cost basis data to see if it is now right.
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I backed up my file.
I deleted the 4/2/2024 GE RtrnCapX (Spin-off to GE Healthcare Technologies) and I deleted the 1/4/2023 GE RtrnCapX (Spin-off to GE Vernova). I did not delete the GE Healthcare or the GE Vernova. The 1 lot's Cost Basis now equals the Total Cost Basis as it did before the Spin-offs were made. That's good. Well, it was off .01 as it was off before. I can live with .01 (GE $19,997.11 and Lot $19,997.10)
I then did another backup.
Then I entered a 1/4/2023 GE RtrnCapX (not the Spin-off) but then the Lot's Cost Basis did not equal the Total Cost Basis. It was off by the same amount as before $396.35 The Total Cost Basis was correct as before but the lot Basis was too high by $396.35. I deleted it and re-entered and updated it with the market value but still the same wrong result.
Hopefully sometime tomorrow (oops it is already tomorrow) I will try the Spin-off action (instead of just using the RtrnCapX) but I don't know if it will work.
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A return of capital is SUPPOSED to reduce the cost basis. You've got part of your initial investment (capital) back. Where did you expect it to come from?
Q user since February, 1990. DOS Version 4
Now running Quicken Windows Subscription, Business & Personal
Retired "Certified Information Systems Auditor" & Bank Audit VP0 -
I ran a 1/3/2023 Portfolio today. Then I entered the 1/4/2023 GE Spin-off to GE-H and before making any changes to the generated transactions I ran a 1/4/2023 Portfolio. Those 2 Portfolios and Screen Shots of the Corporate Securities, the Return of Capital, the MiscIncX UnrealizedGain, and the Add - Shares Added are attached as a pdf file "2 Portfolios 20230104 Spin-off to GE-H ScreenShots".
Then I made the following changes to the generated transactions:
On the RtrnCapX changed the Amount from $4,173.51 to $4,173.40
Deleted the MiscIncX Unrealized Gain transaction (of $8,005.72)
On the Add - Shares Added changed the 224.999775 shares to 225 shares and the Price paid to 18.548463 (from 18.548952). Thus Total Cost recalculated to $4,173.40 (from $4173.51).
But I still have the same problem. The Total Cost Basis $15,823.71 is correct. However the Lot 1/29/1988 $16,220.06 is wrong (and I have always had only 1 lot of GE). It is over by $396.35. I have another Portfolio after making these changes and attached it as "1 Portfolio 20230104 after changes Spinoff to GE-H"
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@q_lurker I entered the Spin-Off to 1/4/2023 GE-H as I described above 7/25/2024. I was still off $396.35
I suppose another way to look at it is:
$19,997.11 - 4,173.40 = $15,823.71 Total Cost Basis which is correct
but it looks like only $3,777.05 was subtracted out of the Lot 1/29/1988
$19,997.11 - 3,777.05 =$16,220.06 which is wrong (s/h/b 19,997.11 - 4,173.40 =15,82371 or .01 difference). (I was hoping the $3,777.05 would look familiar to me but it does not.)
Since this was the oldest Spin-off I have not done the 4/2/2024 to GE-V as I was hoping to get the oldest one done correctly first. I'll let it set a little and if there aren't any other ideas I'll go ahead and enter the 4/2/2024 (or maybe just the ReturnCapX since the GE-Vernova is already out there) and just leave it and make a note to myself. Possibly early next year somehow close GE- Aerospace and rename it to GE - Aerospace OLD and then set up another GE - Aerospace starting with only the transactions in 2025 and of course an Added Shares somehow of 1/29/1988 with the 1 current lot of the correct Cost Basis.
In your suggestion of 12:02am 7/23/24 Tuesday # 4 I assume it to mean to make the minor adjustments that I show on my screen shots in order to match Schwab and the #5 I assume means to delete the transactions that were just generated by the Spin-off and that I just made the minor adjustments to. (I haven't actually deleted them yet.) I assume I am deleting them as the existing ones are fine.
(Just as an aside I found that with the 5/13/2004 sale of 200 shares of GE is the first time that the Lot Basis went off by .01)
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I am sort of in process at this point. Without going into the nitty gritty, I replicated your buy, sales, and splits and the first spin-off. What I got was a similar but bigger discrepancy - $800 vs your $396. I am leaning toward a position that the sales are the issue, but that is still a hypothesis; nothing proven, other than some support that your data file is not the problem.
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@q_lurker I don't know if this will help you but just in case here it is: a pdf file of the screen shot of the "Buy - Shares Bought", Capital Gains Report, and screen shots of the "Sell- Shares Sold" and another pdf file of the 4 Stock Splits.
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I think I've got it — Quicken bug, and very obscure.
The gist of it in your case is that:
- You initially bought 2,376 shares,
- Before and after a series of stock splits you sold a total of 3,676 shares.
- You did not specify lots in all of those sales.
- You had a RtrnCap transaction.
Once your sales exceeded 2,376 shares and you had the RtrnCap transaction, Quicken miscalculated the by-lot cost basis for your single lot.
Your fix is to specify the lot (the only lot you have), for all the Sold or SoldX transactions.
As far as I have determined, this bug only affects the cost basis per lot shown on a portfolio view grouped by Account and expanded to so the lot details for the securities
I'll later start a new thread documenting the issue so I can reference it via report a problem.
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@q_lurker WOW Ok Does that mean I can just delete the RtrnCapX (or maybe I don't even need to delete the RtrnCapX) and then go into each Sale starting with the 8/31/1988 sale and specify the lot OR do I have to delete all the sales (& even stock splits…) and re-enter them?
There is one more thing although I don't think I need to do anything with it: I have a 2/25/2019 GE Dividend showing for $2,264.01 and see that it is really a GE Taxable Spin-off to Wabtec. Of course it does not change the Cost Basis (and it's not supposed to). I do not know in what manner I entered it - it just shows as a dividend. Also there is a Buy - Shares Bought for WABTEC for 29.0034 shares (5,400 shrs GE X .005371 = 29.0034 shrs WABTEC). I also have the sale for CIL of .0034 shrs of WABTEC and the 29 shr of WABTEC was sold 5/19/2021. Schwab showed it as pd/adjusted in 2020 for 2019 for $2,263.74 and I know it was reported as Income on my 2019 Income Tax.
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No need in my test cases to delete any transactions. Simply edit each sale to make sure the lot is specified. I suspect the dollar difference I noted previously between you ($396) and me ($809) may be that you already have some sales specifying the lot.
WAB - that is all there is to the transaction and manual entries are required, perhaps in conjunction with any downloaded transactions. Cash Dividend received; Buy WAB shares including fractional share; Sell fractional share for CIL. No impact on this current issue. (I haven't gone back to look at the prices you are talking about. I trust you are consistent with what brokerage and you reported for taxes.)
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All set! I specified the lot (the only lot I have) on the SoldX and Sold transactions. (The 4/11/02 and the 8/12/03 Sold transactions already had the lot specified.) The lot Cost Basis equals the Total Cost Basis - well it is off .01 but that is ok (rounding somewhere I assume). I've included "Portfolio GE Spin offs 20230104 and 20240402". (And of course CIL for .75 shrs GE Verona was done the next day.)
Thank you!
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Great. Glad to get that confirmation. Now I just need to write up an explanation with examples so they can fix it - someday.
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My bug-report post for general reference:
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