Growth of $10,000: deposits and withdrawals handled incorrectly

Jim_Harman

QWin 2019 R15.18 (but I think this problem has been present for a long time)

Depositing or withdrawing cash from an investing account should not affect the Investing > Growth of $10,000 graph, especially if you select "All securities." The graph IMO should show the performance of the securities in the account and should be the same as it is when you transfer cash into or out of the account rather than depositing or withdrawing.

To see the correct behavior, select an account that has a large XIn or XOut transaction. Set the date range to the 1st to the last day of a month with one of these transactions. Select All Securities.

There will not be a large jump in the Growth of $10,000 graph on the transfer date. If you hover over the data point for the transfer date, the "Actual Value" will change but there will be a "Cumul. Net Addition" corresponding to the transfer amount. Thus the graph is affected by the performance of the investments in the account and not by cash transferred in or out.

To see the incorrect behavior, set up the same but look at a date with a large Deposit, Withdraw, or WriteChk transaction. There will be a corresponding jump in the graph, and if you hover over the data point, the "Actual Value" will change but there is no offsetting amount in the "Cumul. Net Additions."

This problem makes the otherwise very useful Growth of $10,000 graph incorrect for any account that has had deposits and withdrawals. 

Quicken Sarah

Hi Jim,

Thank you for taking the time to report this.  I've gone through the information provided a few times, the in-product Help article and troubleshooting in my own file and to be honest, I feel like I am missing something.

From the explanation of how the growth is calculated, it appears that the Deposit/Withdraw/WriteChk transactions should not be included in the "Cumul. Net Addition" balance, only the XIn/XOut transactions but the Deposit/Withdraw/WriteChk transactions should correlate to the jump in the graph point on the Growth of $10,000 graph; which is exactly what I am seeing in my test file.

 

  


From my current understanding, the graph does seem to be calculating correctly but if I am missing something, or you are experiencing different behavior, please let me know.

Thanks,

Sarah

K.O. (Win-Premier)

Arctic Hare

Only transfers-in-kind of securities should come into play; transfers in/out of cash should not come into play.

Jim_Harman

Jim_Harman

Sherlock

Quicken Sarah said:

Hi Jim,

Thank you for taking the time to report this.  I've gone through the information provided a few times, the in-product Help article and troubleshooting in my own file and to be honest, I feel like I am missing something.

From the explanation of how the growth is calculated, it appears that the Deposit/Withdraw/WriteChk transactions should not be included in the "Cumul. Net Addition" balance, only the XIn/XOut transactions but the Deposit/Withdraw/WriteChk transactions should correlate to the jump in the graph point on the Growth of $10,000 graph; which is exactly what I am seeing in my test file.

 

  


From my current understanding, the graph does seem to be calculating correctly but if I am missing something, or you are experiencing different behavior, please let me know.

Thanks,

Sarah

I think Jim Harman's point is that your graph should not have the bump.  For what it's worth, the issue does not appear to be present in Quicken 2016 R18.4.  In Quicken 2016 R18.4, the issue with the graph I find frustrating is the mishandling of splits.

Jim_Harman

Arctic Hare (H&B 2019 Canadian) said:

Only transfers-in-kind of securities should come into play; transfers in/out of cash should not come into play.

I'm not sure what you mean by "come into play."

I think transfers of any kind, including cash deposits and withdrawals, should not make the graph jump up or down; it should only be affected by the performance of the underlying securities.

Arctic Hare

Arctic Hare (H&B 2019 Canadian) said:

Only transfers-in-kind of securities should come into play; transfers in/out of cash should not come into play.

Agreed. We are saying the same thing. Come into play = affects the chart.

Changes in security holding balancess should affect the chart. Changes in cash balance should not affect the chart. Transfers-in-kind of securities affect security unit or share balances, not cash balances; therefore, transfers-in-kind of securities should affect the chart.

Jim_Harman

Quicken Sarah

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for the additional information and further examples, it helped fill in what I was missing

I've submitted a ticket to Development to request they investigate further.  I went through both QW 2016 and 2017 with the same test file and none of the same graph point jumps occur so there's definitely something in the handling of the Deposit/Withdraw/WriteChk transactions.

I also asked that they return the "options" gear icon to the graph view on the Investing tab so the graph can be customized without having to add it to the Home view.

I'll be back to share updates as they are received on this, thanks!

Sarah

Sherlock

Quicken Sarah said:

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for the additional information and further examples, it helped fill in what I was missing

I've submitted a ticket to Development to request they investigate further.  I went through both QW 2016 and 2017 with the same test file and none of the same graph point jumps occur so there's definitely something in the handling of the Deposit/Withdraw/WriteChk transactions.

I also asked that they return the "options" gear icon to the graph view on the Investing tab so the graph can be customized without having to add it to the Home view.

I'll be back to share updates as they are received on this, thanks!

Sarah

In Quicken 2016 R18.4, the Investing tab's Performance view Growth of $10,000 graph does not have an Options gear but is customized using the pull-down menus at the top of the view.

Jim_Harman

Quicken Sarah said:

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for the additional information and further examples, it helped fill in what I was missing

I've submitted a ticket to Development to request they investigate further.  I went through both QW 2016 and 2017 with the same test file and none of the same graph point jumps occur so there's definitely something in the handling of the Deposit/Withdraw/WriteChk transactions.

I also asked that they return the "options" gear icon to the graph view on the Investing tab so the graph can be customized without having to add it to the Home view.

I'll be back to share updates as they are received on this, thanks!

Sarah

If they do anything with the options, it would certainly be nice if the securities dropdown included "No Security (includes Cash)." Currently the only way to include cash is to select "All Securities" which may not be what you want. That omission may be contributing in some way to the problems related to deposits and withdrawals.

That omission also causes "All securities" to produce different results than "Customize" with all the available securities selected.

One other point on the selections for performance tab:

The date, account, and security selections affect the two graphs on this page but only the account selection affects the Average Annual Return table at the bottom. The end date for this table is always today and all securities are always selected.

I can't think of any reason other than "That's the way it has always been" that the end date and security selections for the table should not follow the selections at the top of the page. 

Jim_Harman

Jim_Harman

Jammer13

Jim_Harman

Jammer13

Jim_Harman