IRR reporting excessive gain

Bob@50

Quicken Home, Business & Rental 2019 for Windows version R16.14, Build 27.1.16.14

I used the Mutual Fund Conversion function in my investing account to track the conversion of a targeted fund to a new targeted fund (age-based).  As part of the transaction, the shares of the original fund were removed as 1 transaction and shares of the new fund were added using multiple transactions (on a transaction by transaction basis to match the original transaction purchases). 

When running an IRR report, a huge IRR is shown because of a problem in the calculation.  The removed shares are showing a value that is around $19 million when the actual value is around $18k, which is causing Quicken to report that the IRR is over 200,000%.  The price history for the original fund is accurate.  The value for the new shares is accurate.  The only problem appears to be the value assigned to the removed shares when using the mutual fund conversion function.

Sherlock

The easiest way to address the issue may be to edit the transactions manually.   Alternately, you could delete the Removed and Added transactions introduced (or restore a data file backup) and try again.  As the Mutual Fund Conversion wizard is known to have issues, my preferences has been to use the Corporate Acquisition wizard instead.  The functional difference is the Corporate Acquisition applies across all accounts where as Mutual Fund Conversion is limited to the current account. 

If you haven't already, you may want to review: https://getsatisfaction.com/quickencommunity/topics/faq-convert-share-class-for-mutual-fund

Jim_Harman

Back up your data file, then click on the Removed transaction and look at the number in the second line under "Removed". Quicken sometimes puts a wild value here, when it should be the value of the security on the date removed, i.e  (# of shares removed) * (share price on the removal date). If the number is wrong, you can edit it to enter the correct value.

Also check the price history for the removed security on the removal date and correct it if it is wrong.

These two steps should fix this problem in both the Investment Performance report and the Growth of $10,000.

Bob@50

Thank you. That solves the problem. it would be helpful if in the dialog box you could verify the values before the transactions are entered. Wonder why quicken puts a wild number there? That seems like something they need to fix!

Jim_Harman

Bob said:

Thank you. That solves the problem. it would be helpful if in the dialog box you could verify the values before the transactions are entered. Wonder why quicken puts a wild number there? That seems like something they need to fix!

Absolutely it's a bug in the Mutual Fund Conversion calculations. Was your problem with the "mystery number", the share price, or both?

This has been discussed extensively elsewhere but so far there has been no action on Quicken's part other than acknowledging that it is a problem (QWIN-13807).

Bob@50

Bob said:

Thank you. That solves the problem. it would be helpful if in the dialog box you could verify the values before the transactions are entered. Wonder why quicken puts a wild number there? That seems like something they need to fix!

The mystery number was the issue.  I didn't realize they entered it in the register - when I went to the screen for the fund that holds the price history graph, volume information,etc., the transaction history at the top of that screen showed the correct amount even though the mystery number spot in the register did not. 

As an aside, the annual rate of return reports for 1 year, 3 year, and 5 year on the account holding the mutual fund (and thus for all my accounts combined) is still completely wrong - it still shows up as if the mystery number is still the crazy millions number.  So, according to the report, my annual rate of return on the account holding the fund is approximately 900%.  I wish!  Another bug in there they need to address.

I wish I had found the discussion elsewhere - the only thing I found before posting the question was a thread about a year old that discussed the price history being wrong but didn't mention the mystery number.  Appreciate your help.

Unknown

Since the Mutual Fund Conversion wizard is mentioned here I want point out this release note for R17.5  (currently in stage release mode and available for manual update)

Fixed: Multiple issues with the share price calculation when using the Mutual Fund Conversion operation.

https://www.quicken.com/support/patching-updates-windows

Jim_Harman

Bob said:

Thank you. That solves the problem. it would be helpful if in the dialog box you could verify the values before the transactions are entered. Wonder why quicken puts a wild number there? That seems like something they need to fix!

Which reports exactly are still wrong? It it the numbers in the "Av. Annual Return" columns in the Investing > Portfolio views, the Investing Performance report, or someplace else?

Remember that for time periods that include the conversion date, you must include both the old and new securities.

Jim_Harman

QPW said:

Since the Mutual Fund Conversion wizard is mentioned here I want point out this release note for R17.5  (currently in stage release mode and available for manual update)

Fixed: Multiple issues with the share price calculation when using the Mutual Fund Conversion operation.

https://www.quicken.com/support/patching-updates-windows

Hurrah! Hopefully that fixes this issue and does not introduce anything new.

Now if only they would fix the problem with the Growth of $10,000 when there are deposits or withdrawals...

Bob@50

Bob said:

Thank you. That solves the problem. it would be helpful if in the dialog box you could verify the values before the transactions are entered. Wonder why quicken puts a wild number there? That seems like something they need to fix!

I followed the patch update QPW gave me below and that fixed the issue. Not sure why my one-step update failed to grab the patch. 

It was the Av. Annual Return report in the Investing > Performance view.  Each column in the report was incorrect (1 year, 3 year, and 5 year).

Jim_Harman

Bob said:

Thank you. That solves the problem. it would be helpful if in the dialog box you could verify the values before the transactions are entered. Wonder why quicken puts a wild number there? That seems like something they need to fix!

That is good news, especially that it fixed the problems for existing Remove transactions and not just newly entered share share class conversions.

Bob@50

QPW said:

Since the Mutual Fund Conversion wizard is mentioned here I want point out this release note for R17.5  (currently in stage release mode and available for manual update)

Fixed: Multiple issues with the share price calculation when using the Mutual Fund Conversion operation.

https://www.quicken.com/support/patching-updates-windows

One can dream.  

Unknown

QPW said:

Since the Mutual Fund Conversion wizard is mentioned here I want point out this release note for R17.5  (currently in stage release mode and available for manual update)

Fixed: Multiple issues with the share price calculation when using the Mutual Fund Conversion operation.

https://www.quicken.com/support/patching-updates-windows

Yes that is the double edge sword you have to deal with, and something that I don't know that a lot of people get.

To some people "Quicken has gone downhill since they separated from Intuit!"
To some people "Quicken has got a lot better since they separated from Intuit!"

What say is that "They have gotten a lot more 'active' since they separated from Intuit!"

In my opinion more long standing problems have been fixed in the last year than in the last 5 that Intuit owned Quicken.

I had big bug numbers in beta by just resubmitting the same bugs year after year.

A big percentage of those bugs are gone now in the latest version of Quicken.
And notice something, in R17.5 they updated the tax tables.  Tell me any year that Intuit got those number update before say February?

But "activity" cuts both ways.  They have also introduced some very bad bugs.
From what I have seen they have fixed most, but it doesn't matter, people see all of that being reported and that drowns out any good things they have done.

And to be sure there are a lot of growing pains (mostly with Quicken Cloud syncing).

If you talk to a lot of people they will say that the pain isn't worth the gain, but there is also a large percentage of people that keep asking "why haven't you added this or that, get with the times..."

When a feature is put in (especially if it has problems) and that person doesn't use that feature it is always "Why are they wasting their time on that?"  Or "Why did they mess up this or that?"

But in the same breath they come back and say "They should be putting in X or Y."

Which of course a different person doesn't want.

And one of the problems I see for Quicken Inc and Quicken Cloud is the very fact that the people that are most likely to be beta testers are then same ones that would avoid Quicken Cloud syncing for various reasons.

That is why I think most of the Quicken Cloud sync problems are in fact reported by the "average user" oppose to in a beta.

Jim_Harman

I can confirm that QWin 2019 R17.5 fixes this problem for newly entered conversions.

Thanks, Quicken!

For me it did not fix problems with conversions that were entered using earlier versions of Quicken.

Unknown

Jim Harman said:

I can confirm that QWin 2019 R17.5 fixes this problem for newly entered conversions.

Thanks, Quicken!

For me it did not fix problems with conversions that were entered using earlier versions of Quicken.

I wouldn't really expect it to retroactively fix the old transactions.

Jim_Harman

Jim Harman said:

I can confirm that QWin 2019 R17.5 fixes this problem for newly entered conversions.

Thanks, Quicken!

For me it did not fix problems with conversions that were entered using earlier versions of Quicken.

Neither would I, but Bob said above that it did for him.

I think what happened in his case is that he had already fixed the underlying problem, and the Av annual return on the Investing > Performance page updated when he restarted Quicken.