I overpaid my credit card - Quicken sees the positive balance as negative, won't reconcile

Joseph Witkin

My credit card account in Quicken normally shows my running balance as red, negative numbers - the amount I owe. This month I purposely overpaid in anticipation of a charge that has not come through yet, so I have a credit balance on the account - black with no minus sign in my Quicken register.
After downloading transactions with OSU as usual, auto reconcile shows "cleared balance -2,652" and "Statement Ending Balance 2,652", difference -5,304; it needs to be zero in order to reconcile the account. The sign is wrong on one of them. On my credit card website, the balance is clearly shown as "-2,652".
I have had positive credit card balances transiently in the past, and I don't recall having any issue with their reconciling.
Any idea what is going on here? Thanks

UKR

How are you reconciling?
Against the Online Balance?

Or using a Manual Reconcile?

There are several discussions on this subject here in the Community. It appears that, for some reason, a downloaded Online Balance for an overpaid credit card is not recognized correctly. Quicken should really get the programmers to fix this issue, whatever it takes.
For as long as the credit balance exists, I recommend you perform a Manual Reconcile entering the statement ending balance as a negative number. Under the covers, Quicken always performs a calculation, Balance*(-1), to flip the sign. That works great for when you owe money, but requires a little trickery for credit balances.

If you feel up to it, report this problem to Quicken (Help / Report a problem) and send in your log files plus a link to this discussion. Until further notice please retain a copy of your data file with the overpaid balance. You may also be asked to send in a sanitized (all personal info obscured) copy of this data file for research.

Joseph Witkin

My credit card account has always been set to "Reconcile using online balance". If I uncheck that, and do a Manual reconcile, flipping the sign, as you suggest, it works and reconciles correctly. But if I then change back to online balance, it again shows the wrong sign and is off again. And I get the warning that "switching to paper statement reconcile after using online balance can cause problems"... - is it safe for me to stay with paper statement until that big charge posts on the account and my balance is owing again instead of a credit? Other option, clicking "finish later", seems safer. Thoughts?
I will report it. Thanks.

UKR

Did you notice that I responded "For as long as the credit balance exists ..."?
That means, yes, stay with a monthly manual reconcile against paper statement until the credit balance is used up. Afterwards it should be safe to switch back to Online balance.
I don't know why there is a warning message and what the background to that message is. My own accounts have always been against paper statement and I have never had a problem with reconciling or missing out on unexpected charges appearing during the month.

Joseph Witkin

OK, will give it a try. Certainly works as paper statements, and no problem reverting to online (except that the sign reversal recurs). The credit balance should only last for a few days, and I keep daily backups, so I should be good.
I did submit the info with "Report A Problem" .
Thanks again.

Cynthia Lagueux

Thank you Joseph Witkin, for submitting this, I will as well. My problem is the opposite. I have a debit balance on my credit card, as does my Quicken register. The online balance is exactly the same, but credit. This has happened with 2 card so far, but though there are many problems with reconciling, this is a new one. I will try the band aid here (thanks UKR). I routinely switch between online & manual reconciling because of problems reconciling (some admittedly mine, but some Quicken's). Never had a problem with manual reconciling, but always get that error, which is so annoying considering that Quicken doesn't do online reconciling perfectly.

Joseph Witkin

Hopefully they will work out the bug.

Citibank website shows the credit owed as a positive balance - I don't know if that holds for all financial institutions. It needs to be negative in Quicken to reconcile properly.
I did use manual reconcile while I had an overpayment balance on my card, and switched back to auto reconcile to online balance after my large charge went through and my balance became an amount owed again. No problems despite the warnings from Quicken that doing that could cause issues.

Cynthia Lagueux

Don't hold your breath; based on past experience. quicken is very slow at responding to problems.
I should have thought of switching to manual myself, since I've done it so many times when I get behind, and I am the problem. The accounts I'm balancing are not at a statement end, so I'll have to see what happens when I'm at "month end".
Thanks very much.

BobC

I created this note on or around September 15, 2020.  I had hoped that the issue would be solved in a reasonable time, even though it has apparently been around for years.  Nearly a month later, on 10/12/2020, it remains.  I would appreciate the Quicken representatives on this forum acknowledging it as an serious error and getting it into the process to fix.

Thank you to Joseph Witkin and Cynthia Lagueux for posting on this subject.  My experience is essentially the same.  And thanks to @UKR for your questions and suggested work around using manual reconcile with paper statements.

While that work around does address the reconciliation issue, it does not correct the “Online Balance” error, as shown in the register, and it is contrary to one of the reasons to use Quicken – namely that it helps to keep accounts reconciled to bank balances and does this for a user “automatically”, helping to keep user finances in order, all in a relatively timely fashion.  Rather, with this error, Quicken creates a bogus discrepancy users may feel the need to address.

My work around is a little different, and suffers from the same shortcomings.  I never accept the Reconcile’s recommendation to add what would be a bogus placeholder transaction.  I just hold off on Reconciles by selecting “Finish Later” before concluding, and wait until the current balance drops to an actual balance that I owe them, and then do the reconcile.  Sometimes it takes a while, and I must manually check to make sure all is OK, but it has worked for me.

I totally agree with @UKR’s comments that “There are several discussions on this subject here in the Community. It appears that, for some reason, a downloaded Online Balance for an overpaid credit card is not recognized correctly. Quicken should really get the programmers to fix this issue, whatever it takes.”

@Sherlock has also made similar comments in a number of threads or discussions.  Thank you both for acknowledging this problem and posting on it, here in the forum.

For what it is worth, some details of my problem are highlighted below.  I have images and details but they won't fit within the limits on the forum's posts.

I noticed the problem condition most recently after updating my software to Quicken Home, Business & Rental Property 2020, from release R27.42 to release R28.24, on 8/31/2020, at 19:19 PDT.  I believe this error has existed for some time before then, but I never investigated it in the past, because I was not managing credit card balances as aggressively as I am now, and did not have “positive” or “credit” master card or visa card account balances as frequently as I do now.  Regardless, this thread and others make it clear that it is a real problem.  It is a significant error when it occurs, and should be corrected timely.

When my Citi Credit Card accounts are overpaid, the balance shows as a negative number on the Citibank Web Site.  The “Current Balance” or “Ending Balance in the Quicken Account Register correctly shows in black, (not red), but the downloaded “Online Balance” incorrectly shows as red and negative, when the Citibank Website is showing it as a credit balance.

This error occurs with both of my Citi Credit Card accounts – one a Citi Costco Visa card and the other an AT&T Universal Master Card.

On the other hand, my Chase and USAA Visa or Master Cards do NOT exhibit this issue, and their online and current balances match as I expect them to, in spite of the fact that the Chase and USAA Web sites also show the online balance for a credit card account as a negative number, when the card bill is “over paid” and there is a residual “credit” balance instead of an amount owed – just like Citi bank card accounts on their website.

In conclusion, all of the financial institutions, (FIs), I use show a credit card with an overpaid balance or credit balance as a negative balance on their web sites, when accessed with a web browser, (and as a positive balance when I owe them money).  Quicken, on the other hand, shows money owed to the credit card FIs as negative numbers, in red, in the associated Quicken register under the “Balance” column.  When more than the amount due is paid to the Credit Card FI, and the card balance turns positive, the Quicken register shows it as a black, positive number.  I am glad it works that way.  It should stay that way.

But, somehow, when Quicken downloads information from Citibank, and the FI has a credit balance, Quicken interprets it as a debit balance.  In my case, Quicken works properly with Chase and USAA cards, but not with Citibank cards.

This and other threads identify two questions as possibly relevant:

1.  What type of bank connection is used?  In my case they are all Direct Connect.

2.  How do I have reconciliation set up?  All are set to reconcile using Online Balance.

This issue has been identified in more than one thread on the Quicken Forum.  3 examples are:

1.       This thread, I overpaid my credit card - Quicken sees the positive balance as negative, won't reconcile

 2.       Online credit card balance is incorrect

 3.       Citi Credit Cards Balance Wrong

Nonetheless, there is a clear failure of Quicken to properly reflect “positive” or “credit” balances vs “debit” balances, in some FI’s Credit Card data as reported via the Quicken “Online Balance”, while other FIs work fine.  As noted above, I believe Quicken should recognize and fix this problem.

Background Information:

Computer:  LG gram 17 Model 17Z90N-R.AAC8U1

·         The Computer is running Windows 10 Pro, Version 1909, Build 18363.1082

·         The computer is also running the Microsoft 365 Subscription Product, including Microsoft Outlook for Microsoft 365 MSO, (16.0.13231.20250) 64-bit, Version 2009, Build 13231.20262 Click-to-Run.

·         Quicken 2020 Windows Home Business & Rental Property, Subscription Version R29.20, Build 27.1.29.20.

Sherlock

BobC said:

I created this note on or around September 15, 2020.  I had hoped that the issue would be solved in a reasonable time, even though it has apparently been around for years.  Nearly a month later, on 10/12/2020, it remains.  I would appreciate the Quicken representatives on this forum acknowledging it as an serious error and getting it into the process to fix.

Thank you to Joseph Witkin and Cynthia Lagueux for posting on this subject.  My experience is essentially the same.  And thanks to @UKR for your questions and suggested work around using manual reconcile with paper statements.

While that work around does address the reconciliation issue, it does not correct the “Online Balance” error, as shown in the register, and it is contrary to one of the reasons to use Quicken – namely that it helps to keep accounts reconciled to bank balances and does this for a user “automatically”, helping to keep user finances in order, all in a relatively timely fashion.  Rather, with this error, Quicken creates a bogus discrepancy users may feel the need to address.

My work around is a little different, and suffers from the same shortcomings.  I never accept the Reconcile’s recommendation to add what would be a bogus placeholder transaction.  I just hold off on Reconciles by selecting “Finish Later” before concluding, and wait until the current balance drops to an actual balance that I owe them, and then do the reconcile.  Sometimes it takes a while, and I must manually check to make sure all is OK, but it has worked for me.

I totally agree with @UKR’s comments that “There are several discussions on this subject here in the Community. It appears that, for some reason, a downloaded Online Balance for an overpaid credit card is not recognized correctly. Quicken should really get the programmers to fix this issue, whatever it takes.”

@Sherlock has also made similar comments in a number of threads or discussions.  Thank you both for acknowledging this problem and posting on it, here in the forum.

For what it is worth, some details of my problem are highlighted below.  I have images and details but they won't fit within the limits on the forum's posts.

I noticed the problem condition most recently after updating my software to Quicken Home, Business & Rental Property 2020, from release R27.42 to release R28.24, on 8/31/2020, at 19:19 PDT.  I believe this error has existed for some time before then, but I never investigated it in the past, because I was not managing credit card balances as aggressively as I am now, and did not have “positive” or “credit” master card or visa card account balances as frequently as I do now.  Regardless, this thread and others make it clear that it is a real problem.  It is a significant error when it occurs, and should be corrected timely.

When my Citi Credit Card accounts are overpaid, the balance shows as a negative number on the Citibank Web Site.  The “Current Balance” or “Ending Balance in the Quicken Account Register correctly shows in black, (not red), but the downloaded “Online Balance” incorrectly shows as red and negative, when the Citibank Website is showing it as a credit balance.

This error occurs with both of my Citi Credit Card accounts – one a Citi Costco Visa card and the other an AT&T Universal Master Card.

On the other hand, my Chase and USAA Visa or Master Cards do NOT exhibit this issue, and their online and current balances match as I expect them to, in spite of the fact that the Chase and USAA Web sites also show the online balance for a credit card account as a negative number, when the card bill is “over paid” and there is a residual “credit” balance instead of an amount owed – just like Citi bank card accounts on their website.

In conclusion, all of the financial institutions, (FIs), I use show a credit card with an overpaid balance or credit balance as a negative balance on their web sites, when accessed with a web browser, (and as a positive balance when I owe them money).  Quicken, on the other hand, shows money owed to the credit card FIs as negative numbers, in red, in the associated Quicken register under the “Balance” column.  When more than the amount due is paid to the Credit Card FI, and the card balance turns positive, the Quicken register shows it as a black, positive number.  I am glad it works that way.  It should stay that way.

But, somehow, when Quicken downloads information from Citibank, and the FI has a credit balance, Quicken interprets it as a debit balance.  In my case, Quicken works properly with Chase and USAA cards, but not with Citibank cards.

This and other threads identify two questions as possibly relevant:

1.  What type of bank connection is used?  In my case they are all Direct Connect.

2.  How do I have reconciliation set up?  All are set to reconcile using Online Balance.

This issue has been identified in more than one thread on the Quicken Forum.  3 examples are:

1.       This thread, I overpaid my credit card - Quicken sees the positive balance as negative, won't reconcile

 2.       Online credit card balance is incorrect

 3.       Citi Credit Cards Balance Wrong

Nonetheless, there is a clear failure of Quicken to properly reflect “positive” or “credit” balances vs “debit” balances, in some FI’s Credit Card data as reported via the Quicken “Online Balance”, while other FIs work fine.  As noted above, I believe Quicken should recognize and fix this problem.

Background Information:

Computer:  LG gram 17 Model 17Z90N-R.AAC8U1

·         The Computer is running Windows 10 Pro, Version 1909, Build 18363.1082

·         The computer is also running the Microsoft 365 Subscription Product, including Microsoft Outlook for Microsoft 365 MSO, (16.0.13231.20250) 64-bit, Version 2009, Build 13231.20262 Click-to-Run.

·         Quicken 2020 Windows Home Business & Rental Property, Subscription Version R29.20, Build 27.1.29.20.

When the Online Balance is not correct and we're using the Direct Connect or Web Connect connection methods, I suggest contacting the financial institution as the issue is entirely their responsibility to address.  When the issue only occurs using the Express Web Connect connection method, I suggest contacting Quicken Support so they may escalate the issue appropriately with Intuit: https://www.quicken.com/support/quicken-support-options

Rich_M

I've come across this myself a few times with auto reconcile.  

It happened earlier this year with Citi accounts, and that seems to be the common denominator here.

I actually went as far as looking at the OFX logs and determined that Citi is transmitting the online balance incorrectly, the sign needs to be reversed for auto reconcile to work when there's a credit balance.

This simple mathematical error has been going on for a long time.

You cannot expect the end users to contact the bank to get this corrected.

This issue has to be escalated, so that Eric Dunn gets involved, and Quicken as a company contacts Citi and gets it corrected. 

Sherlock

Rich_M said:

I've come across this myself a few times with auto reconcile.  

It happened earlier this year with Citi accounts, and that seems to be the common denominator here.

I actually went as far as looking at the OFX logs and determined that Citi is transmitting the online balance incorrectly, the sign needs to be reversed for auto reconcile to work when there's a credit balance.

This simple mathematical error has been going on for a long time.

You cannot expect the end users to contact the bank to get this corrected.

This issue has to be escalated, so that Eric Dunn gets involved, and Quicken as a company contacts Citi and gets it corrected. 

I do expect the end users to contact the bank to get this corrected as the issue may only be corrected by the financial institution when using the Direct Connect or Web Connect connection methods.  If the Online Balance is unreliable, I suggest reconciling using statement obtained from the financial institution.  

Rich_M

@Sherlock This is only an issue with auto reconcile when there's a credit balance, which is rare for me, so more of a temporary annoyance.

Quicken as a company has the right contacts with Citi to get this corrected more quickly than end users, so I disagree on that. 

Quicken cannot work correctly with bad data from the banks. 

BobC

Hello @Sherlock and others:

Thank you for responding to my post and your suggestion.  As noted in my post, only one of my FIs has this issue - and it is direct connect, like two other FIs without this issue.  After reading your note, I went back and examined my QFX log data associated with the 9/15-18/2020 downloads from the three FIs identified in my original post.  Before I get into the QFX data, images of the register and associated issues for the Citi card and Chase card discussed follow:

Example of Quicken Citicard Register Showing WRONG Online Balance:

Example of Quicken Citicard Reconcile Showing WRONG Online Balance:

Example of Chase Card Register Showing CORRECT Online Balance:

Example of Chase Web Browser Showing Associated Online Balance:

Now, to review what the QFX files show.  They show the <LEDGERBAL><BALAMT> amounts downloaded from Chase and USAA to Quicken are positive when there is a credit balance, (overpaid, so no payment is or will be required), and negative when the account has accumulated a net balance requiring payment to Chase or USAA.

On the other hand, the QFX files show that the <LEDGERBAL><BALAMT> amounts downloaded from Citi are negative, even when the actual balance is a credit balance, (overpaid, no payment is or will be required).  When I examine the QFX log files from 9/15-18/2020, I find the amounts downloaded as the <LEDGERBAL> <BALAMT> for the Citicard in the above example is – $131.48, the same as that shown on its web pages, a negative number.  This is the result of an over-payment and a credit balance, not an amount owed.  As noted in my original post, all of these FIs show credit balances as negative numbers, when the credit card accounts are viewed with a browser on the FI’s web page; but clearly Chase and USAA change the sign, when sending that data to Quicken, so it is correctly shown in Quicken.

Thus, I agree, based on @Sherlock’s information, and my analysis of my data, this is a Citibank issue.  However, I also agree with @Rich_M.  I would be happy to contact Citibank.  But Rich and others have highlighted a real problem for us, as individuals, when trying to work with our banks.  And so, my request to Quicken, is to acknowledge this issue and work with the right people at Citibank, (who they must work with in any case, and who understand the details of what we are talking about).

I have had many poor to horrible experiences trying to find anyone at any FI who has any idea of what I am talking about, when dealing with similar problems in the past.  Even when dealing with fraud, security breaches and vulnerabilities.  Finding the right individual or group to talk with, for a customer like me, is often impossible. 

Quicken, on the other hand, must have someone they interface with to deal with such data transfers and other issues that come up from day to day.  Someone who actually understands the details of the standards and agreements Quicken and Citibank should be using, together, to support their mutual customers, (users like me), and who can resolve this problem.  I will be more than happy to help with detailed information and/or vet a potential solution, and/or call Citibank to let them know we care, but Quicken should work to resolve this, or at least provide us with a contact who understands the subject.

Rich_M

@BobC Great examples and so well said, thank you! We are on the same page, hope Eric is too and realizes these problems at Citi are making his product look very bad, let's fix it once and for all.

Make it happen.

NotACPA

@bobc, You're misinterpreting some things.

Q expects your card balances to reflect money that you owe. But rather than make you type in the minus sign, it assumes this for you ... and you only need to input the numeric amounts.

SO, to reflect the credit balance on the reconcile screen of your Visa account, you need to change that $131.48 "Ending Balance" to be a negative amount (i.e., a negative of a liability is a positive amount) and the account will reconcile normally.

The black "Ending Balance" in the card register also reflects that you've got a positive balance where a negative balance (in red) is normally expected.  Note the red amount on your $888.52 purchase.

Quicken has ALWAYS worked this way, and there's no reason to expect any change.

Rich_M

@NotACPA Try reading this entire discussion thoroughly before you respond, you clearly don't understand the issue we're talking about.

@BobC Is not misinterpreting anything.

NotACPA

Rich_M said:

@NotACPA Try reading this entire discussion thoroughly before you respond, you clearly don't understand the issue we're talking about.

@BobC Is not misinterpreting anything.

If he's not putting that minus sign in the "Ending Balance" of the reconcile screen, then he and you are both misunderstanding everything.

This is a long-standing Q quirk, that has been discussed MANY times of the ages.

Chris_QPW

@NotACPA he is reconciling to the online balance, not what he typed in.

Rich_M

@Chris_QPW Thank You!!! @NotACPA This discussion is about auto reconciling to the online balance, the issue does not involve end user errors.

Cynthia Lagueux

Much interesting discussion here! First, I'm in Canada, so I don't deal with either Chase or Citibank, so I don't think it's related to a particular FI. One of my credit card accounts, a Visa, has miraculously fixed itself, whereas the other, a Mastercard, has not. I'm in total agreement that Quicken should be dealing with the financial institutions. I had the same experience as @BobC with my FI about a different problem that Quicken told me to call them about. It is very frustrating dealing with the inconsistent, bad, or wrong behaviours Quicken exhibits - like being out $1800+ out on one auto-reconcile to online balance, only to miraculously be perfectly balanced after the next one, having done nothing but ignore the problem. Unfortunately, since Quicken has a monopoly on personal finance software, I don't see that their customer service/attention to detail in the software will improve.
I appreciate hearing about the OFX vs. QFX files; I wouldn't have thought of looking there, and now don't need to since you've figured that out @BobC

Rich_M

@Cynthia Lagueux  IMO this is an FI issue, I've come across other instances of erroneous data being sent to Quicken, it takes two parties to make the connective services work properly. 

alan14

This is still an ongoing issue with my Costco Citibank visa  card.  Very surprising that Quicken has not fixed this yet.