Gain/Loss - Investment and Retirement Accounts - Classic Dashboard

Lee Tumbleson

In the Investment and Retirement Accounts widget on the Classic Dashboard, the total Gain/Loss shown, for the account, only shows the gain/loss of the current holdings.

For an account gain/loss, this should really show the gain/loss that is derived by taking the difference of the current balance and the funds add to the account.

For example, I've had a 401k account for over 30 years. However, if I sell everything and buy other funds, my gain/loss for the account would show $0 when I make this trade. Whereas, if I've added $100k over the years, and it's now worth $500k, it doesn't matter what individual trades have been made within the account, my gain (at an account level) is $400k.

Please consider making this calculation change in the this widget (and possibly other locations that may also be relevant).

NotACPA

I strongly disagree. Gain/Loss refers to the change in the value of SECURITIES … NOT the change in the value of the account due to deposits … they aren't taxable events within the account, even if a deposit into a retirement account can be a tax-related event in the non-retirement account.

Lee Tumbleson

NotACPA,

If you want to look at the performance of a security, go do that. This widget, which only shows account totals, should reflect the gain/loss of that account, not the random securities contained within it. Go to the INVESTING/Portfolio page if you want security level detail (which I also do). The Dashboard widget is not that.

I have no easy way to look at the gain/loss of my 30 year old 401k. Or do I? If this already exists, please enlighten me.

Let's look at a simple example: Say I put $100/week into a 401k account for 30 years, that's $156,000. But, after 30 years, let's say that this account has increased to an even $1,000,000. That's an $844,000 gain, regardless of what securities were bought/sold over those 30 years.

Is there somewhere in Quicken that I can see that $844,000 gain?

Ideally, this gain would also not include employer match in the cost-basis. The match would also be consider a gain.

NotACPA

Gain/Loss in an account is the sum of Gain/Loss of the securities IN the account … not any amounts added (or removed).

Adds/Removes are neither gain nor loss, as defined by the IRS.

What you're erroneously calling Gain/Loss is actually "Change in Value", which is shown in "Net Worth" and "Account Balance" reports.

Jim_Harman

@Lee Tumbleson

You might try the Investing > Investing Activity report. It is hard coded to subtotal by quarter, but you can look at the last column to see the totals for your selected date range. The last column is titled "Year to Date" but it actually covers the whole time period. Click on the gear at the top right of the report to select the accounts, securities, etc. to include.

Also, please note that the term "cost basis" is used for tax calculations rather than investment performance. It is only the same as the amount you have deposited if you have never sold any of the securities in the account. If you sell a holding and replace it with something else, that part of your account level cost basis is reset to the cost of the new security.

Boatnmaniac

@Lee Tumbleson - Have you looked at the Investing > Portfolio Value report? It is easily customizable to show the details and summaries that it sounds like you might be looking for.

Once you have customized it the way you want it you can save it to My Saved Reports for easy retrieval in the future. You can even customize the name of the report so they more accurately reflect what you customized them to show.

To make it easier to retrieve your Saved report, you can right click on the Toolbar. Then click on Customize Toolbar > Add or Removed Saved Reports > check the box for the Saved Reports you want shown in the Toolbar > select whether you want the report(s) displayed as icons only or as icons+text. When done the Toolbar will look something like this (shaded in yellow) for the saved report(s). Then whenever you want to retrieve the saved customized report(s) all you need to do is click on the icon(s).:

I have found doing this greatly reduces my level of effort when wanting to see customized saved reports that I frequently use.

q_lurker

@Lee Tumbleson

Ideally, this gain would also not include employer match in the cost-basis. The match would also be consider a gain.

I'll take the contrary position. I always viewed such employer-match contribution as part of my complete compensation plan. Not substantially different than my optional 401k contribution nor the deposit into my checking account. No way, in my view, it should be part of the increased investment value.

Beyond that, I think Jim's suggestion about the Investing Activity report is the closest available to what you are after.

Lee Tumbleson

Thank you for some of the suggestions, I'll try them.

However, the IRS argument, for a 401k, is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter what happens in the 401k account, EVERYTHING that you withdrawal form the account is equally taxed as ordinary income.

For the 401k account, you don't need to know any of the gain/loss information for any securities ever purchased in this account.

The report that I'm looking for is strictly informational, not tax related.

Jim_Harman

In addition to the Investing Activity report, you might also look at the Investment Performance report, subtotaled by Account.

The IPR shows the annualized rates of return using an IRR calculation. Click on Show Detail to see the cash flow transactions that are included. If you want dollar amounts, you can manipulate the Investments and Returns columns.

If you used the Paycheck Wizard to record contributions to a 401(k), Employer match contributions are included in the IPR as the second line for each paycheck date. To remove them from the calculation, you would have to export the report to Excel and delete those lines. This will of course increase the apparent return in the account, but maybe that is what you want.

NotACPA

"However, the IRS argument, for a 401k, is completely irrelevant."

UNTRUE. Adds and Removes to a 401k are taxable events … but they're NOT Gains or losses. You simply don't understand the terms Gain or Loss.

Lee Tumbleson

I'm not using the IRS/tax definition of gains. I'm using common sense terms that indicates how much money I have gained.

Again, this isn't an IRS issue, this is just a matter of how much the account has increased.

The first definition of Gain is: "resources or advantage acquired or increased" (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gain)

[Removed - Disruptive]

NotACPA

"I'm using common sense terms that indicates how much money I have gained."

Wrong again. If you're adding money to an account, you haven't GAINED anything. You just moved the funds from one pocket to another. Do you also call it a loss when you take your wallet out of your pocket at night???

That increase is a change in value, which is shown in a Net Worth, or Account Balances, report.

q_lurker

In my view, it is critical for Quicken to be consistent with its terminology and likewise in its calculations related to that terminology. It is a recipe for confusion to calculate gain/loss one way through one segment of the program and a different way in another segment.

If it is to be presented, what you are after is not gain/loss; it needs a different description - something like “Change in value” or “Investment Growth”, neither of which are ideal.

NotACPA

Any claimed "gain" in your 401k is exactly offset by the reduction in the source of funds, a net $0. Just as your "loss" from removing funds is offset by the gain in the receiving account. Again a net $0.

You're simply confusing terminology and deluding yourself.

Lee Tumbleson

OK, if I'm understanding the definitions that you are presenting, then the Widget is still wrong.

It should always show $0 for the gain/loss in a pre-tax account?

Jim_Harman

@Lee Tumbleson Perhaps what Quicken calls "Return" is more like what you are looking for. Unfortunately Quicken uses this term inconsistently and the calculation on the Portfolio pages and elsewhere is not what most people expect, especially at the account level. Please see this discussion

https://community.quicken.com/discussion/7930274/quicken-glossary-of-terms-for-investments

and this one

https://community.quicken.com/discussion/7864889/account-level-amount-invested-and-roi-are-calculated-incorrectly-when-a-security-is-sold

Boatnmaniac

@Lee Tumbleson - After reading through this thread it seems that what you want to see is report that shows the change in value of your account(s) from the earliest date to the current date. The value can go up (a gain) or it can go down (a loss) but these gains and losses are just a change in the value. They are not an investment gains/losses nor are they IRS taxable events….even though these can be factors that contribute to the value changes. It's just a change to the value.

There are a couple of reports that can be used to see this information:

1. Reports > Net Worth & Balances > Account Balances: This can be easily customized to include only the account(s) you want, select the date range you want and to select a reporting interval (such as, "Year"). This report will show just a high-level summary for each account as well as the total for all accounts. It will not include details of what caused the changes in value. Here is an example of this report take from a TEST file.:
   
2. Reports > Net Worth & Balances > Lifetime Overview: This report can be customize to include only the account(s) you want, the date range and then you can select to show the yearly summaries of what caused the value changes. This one also includes the Net Worth % Change and the CAGR (compound annual growth rate). Here is an example of this report taken from a TEST file.:
   

Do either of these reports give you what you are looking for?

Lee Tumbleson

@Boatnmaniac, thanks, I wasn't aware of the Lifetime Overview report. For me, it doesn't show up in the pull-down, I have to open the full Reports & Graphs Center to find it. Only the Account Balances and the Net Worth reports show up under Reports > Net worth & Balances.

That report is getting much closer to what I'm looking for. However, it doesn't quite get me there.

In your screenshot, where does it show how much you deposited into these accounts? The Funds Added and Funds Removed appear to be Buy and Sell trades.

I'm really looking for Ending Net Worth minus Funds Deposited, which I don't see in either report.

Boatnmaniac

@Lee Tumbleson - Don't read too much in the numbers in that report picture that I posted. It is not a real portfolio. This report was generated from a test file where I do a lot of playing around with things to see what works, what doesn't, what might break Quicken, etc….so a lot of fictional numbers here.

The way I have this report set up in this test file, the Funds Added column includes:

• Transfers In
• Contributions
• Deposits
• Shares added

The Funds Removed column includes:

• Transfers Out
• Distributions
• Withdrawals
• Shares Removed.

There are other columns (columns 3-9) that account for investment returns…these are not included in the Funds Added and Funds Removed columns:

1. Regular Income (interest)
2. Investment Income (dividends)
3. Realized Gains (from sale of securities)
4. Realized Losses (from sale of securities)
5. Total Income (the sum of 1-4)
6. Expenses (investment related)
7. Net Income (#5 - #6)

The Ending Net Worth column includes all of these additions and subtractions.

This report can be customized to remove the columns you do not want to see but removing those columns will not change the values in the Ending Net Worth column.

You could export the report to Excel where you can enter a formula into the Net Worth column to exclude data from other columns that you do not want included. I think that is going to be about as close that Quicken can take you to what you are looking for

NotACPA

@Lee Tumbleson "'It should always show $0 for the gain/loss in a pre-tax account?"

That's ONLY true if the securities in the account never change value.

Jim_Harman

To build on what @Boatnmaniac says, if you are using the Lifetime Overview report and you want to see how much your contributions have grown, I think you would track the net funds added, i.e "Funds added" - "Funds removed". Even if there are no withdrawals, if a mutual fund in the account a share class conversion, there will be Removed and Added transactions that net to zero.

You would then subtract the total of the net funds added from the net worth to get the total growth or whatever we are calling it.

Lee Tumbleson

@Jim_Harman, thanks, but I have multiple years where Funds Removed is more than Funds Added. I've never taken withdrawals from the 401k, except to do a Roth conversion. I included the Roth account in the report, so that should zero-out.

I guess it's just not possible to see this in a Quicken report. I'll have to keep tracking this in Excel.

Jim_Harman

You can see what is going on in the Lifetime Overview report by double clicking on any of the Funds Added or Removed entries to see where the numbers come from.

II did that with my data file and found old accounts that I had forgotten to include in the report and some bogus Cash Balance Adjustments from several years ago.