Subcategories: Hide All does not work

dave344

I am using Quicken Classic PREMIER on Windows 11 (see details below).

When I prepare a report with categories that have subcategories assigned, the "Hide All" option only applies to some of the subcategories. The problem is illustrated in the "Show All" and "Hide All" images below. The report seems to sum the amounts properly (it does not double count the subcategory detail). But when I export the report to Excel , I must manually delete all the subcategory detail before I can accurately manipulate the date. This inconsistency applies only to certain categories and accounts.

Can anyone explain why this is happening? Is this data corruption?

This behavior has been going for many months. Running the Super Validation diagnostic shows no errors. Here are my system details:

Quicken Classic PREMIER
Version R62.16
Build 27.1.62.16
Windows 11 Enterprise

dave344

Something else that may be related to this issue is the presence of several "auto_generated" categories that I recently discovered. I did not create this categories. They were generated without any user intervention. They do not appear to contain any transactions.

I am concerned that the presence of these categories may indicate some type of corruption in my Quicken data file that may be related to my original post of inconsistent behavior in " Subcategories: Hide All."

Does anyone know the nature of these categories and why Quicken keeps creating them?

NotACPA

Those ACCT "categories" are indicative of a corrupted Q data file.

SO, try taking a backup and then Validating your file.

Corruption COULD also explain your "hide" issue.

dave344

Thank you NotaCPA.

But I got a clean "Super Validate" report. See the output in the original post above.

Is there anything else I should check?

Rocket J Squirrel

I also find that Hide All subcategories doesn't always work. It's some kind of bug or unfixable data corruption. I don't believe anyone knows what's happening or how to fix it.

Validate & Repair actually creates those ACCT pseudo-categories. They are supposed to be temporary and be deleted when V&R finishes.

I would delete them all and then do File > Copy or Backup File > Create A Copy, which should remove items internally marked as deleted. Then use the copy. You'll have to reconnect all online accounts, but it might be worth it.

dave344

Thank you Rocket J Squirrel. I deleted the pseudo-categories, validated the file, backed up the file and then restored the file from backup. I then re-validated the new file but there is no further evidence of any pseudo-categories.

You said the "hide subcategories" failure is a known unresolved issue? Is there any way to call this to Quicken's attention.

This is kind of a big deal. The report totals are summed accurately but the numbers on the face of the report will not sum to the totals because the subcategory values are redundant. That's bad. The report is inaccurate on it's face. Not only that, but if you import the report into Excel and then try to sum the columns, they are going to be off. The total will be overstated because of the redundant numbers.

After some detailed investigation, I found that my problem originated when I started depositing my Army pension payment into Fidelity instead of Bank of America. In my Quicken, Fidelity is a "Brokerage" account while Bank of America is a "Checking" account. I have a income category called "Pension" which has four subcategories: "Army", "E&Y", "Dave Social Security" and "Cath Social Security". In August 2021 I started depositing my Army pension into Fidelity instead of Bank of America. This is when the problem with the "Hide All Subcategories" begins. Any reports with dates prior to August 2021 will properly hide the subcategories and the numbers in the report will foot, as any proper report should. But after August 2021, any report that includes the "Pension" subcategory and that is configured to "Hide all" will include all of the individual transactions amounts for the pension subcategories PLUS a total for the pension subcategory 'Army" so that the amount of the Army pension is double counted: the report shows the detail amounts as well as the sum of the detail amounts. The report total shows the correct amount, but the face of the report does not sum to the total.

The problem is not confined to pensions. The monthly Army pension entry is a split transaction as: "Pension income", "fed w/h", "state w/h", and "SBP insurance". Each one of these categories is also affected by the "hide subcategories" problem. Only categories where the deposit was changed from the BofA "checking" account to the Fidelity "investment" account are affected by this problem

This is bad. Very bad. What could be more embarrassing for an accountant than to prepare a report that is inaccurate on it's face? But this is precisely what is happening: the report does not foot, a most basic and fundamental requirement for conveying reliable financial information.

This problem needs to be addressed as it goes to the integrity of the system. If it's happening with this report, where else is it happening that I have yet to discover.

How can I get Quicken to address this issue?

RalphC

I'll echo the remarks here and it appears that your data file is corrupt. Whatever you did, perhaps it's unfixable. I would restore a known-good backup from before you changed the allocation of your Army pension and try to edit the file again.

Q97

@dave344 I think you are onto something when you say the issue might be related to the brokerage account.

In your case, it is related to income, but I notice something similar for an expense. If I create Reports → Spending → Spending by Category, it defaults to show all the subcategories. If I then go to Customize report → Advanced and set Subcategories to Hide all, all the subcategories go away from the report except for one that originates from a Withdraw transaction from a brokerage account.

I have used a customized copy of this report for a decade or more. I first noticed this subcategory issue about a month ago when I entered my first withdrawal to a subcategory from my HSA (tax-deferred) brokerage account. All my other expenses originate from Banking accounts and do not have this issue, so I suspect that Quicken is not properly hiding the subcategory when the expense originates from an Investment account.

Jim_Harman

How can I get Quicken to address this issue?

@dave344

This is primarily a user to user forum. Forum Moderators (users whose names begin with "Quicken") sometimes review issues discussed here and refer them to Development, but if you want Quicken to work on a problem, you should contact Support via phone.  Be sure the support agent understands the problem and gives you a ticket number for future reference. Please post the ticket number here. Development only works on problems that have been referred by a Moderator or confirmed by a Support contact.

You should also use the Help > Report a Problem menu in Quicken to submit the issue online. In your submission, be as clear and thorough as possible. Reference the ticket number and provide a link to this discussion. Provide step by step instructions to reproduce the problem and note any error messages you receive. They will not pay much attention to a problem unless they can replicate it in house or see it in a support session.

You will not get a response to an electronic submission, but apparently they review and prioritize the submissions and use the data to help resolve problems they decide to work on. The more reports they receive the better.

Updates on problems that Quicken has acknowledged are posted here

https://community.quicken.com/categories/alerts

dave344

Thank you for your insights Q97. That makes sense. Rocket J Squirrel also indicated that he had encountered the same subcategory issue but neither of us made a connection with an expense originating from an investment account. Now if we can only get Quicken to address the issue.

There are work arounds. The simplest is to remove the subcategory designation (i.e., in my case, make "Army Pension" a separate income category rather than a subcategory of the "Pension" income category.) I tried this and it works (although my category presentation is disordered). I then changed it back to a subcategory, validated, saved, closed and reopened, thinking that recreating the subcategory would fix the problem. No such luck.

I suppose you could argue that it's just a presentation problem, so users can just learn to live with it. But it's more than just a presentation problem, it's a reliability problem. At least three of us have encountered it. It exists. It's real. If Quicken is producing reports that are false on their face (i.e., they don't foot), then it has a serious credibility problem. If there is one known and unaddressed problem, there are likely others. Issues like this need to be addressed when reported.

And it's not just presentation and reliability. It's also user convenience. Consider how I discovered the problem. I prepared an annual income statement with hidden subcategories in Quicken and exported it to Excel. I expected the sum of all of the income categories to equal total income, but they not because of the double counting. So, while I expected the "Pensions" category to be reported as the sum of the Army, Social Security and E&Y subcategories like this:
Pensions 300
Instead I got this:
Pensions 200
Army 100
Total Pensions 300
So when I sum the column in Excel, it is 300 overstated. The problem is compounded by the fact that the Army pension is a split transaction with four other categories (withholdings, insurance and deductions), all of which exhibit the same behavior in the report (i.e., double counting). I fix the problem by zeroing out the subcategory amounts. But if I make a change in Quicken and have to re-import my report, I have to go through the whole zeroing process again, a time consuming and tideous process that is prone to error.

It shouldn't be like this. Does anyone know how we can ask Quicken to look into this issue?

Jim_Harman

Also @dave344, It appears that your problem is with the Itemized Categories report. Do I have that right?

If you go to the top of the report and select Top level Summary in the Update to show dropdown list, do you still see unwanted subcategories? It is still a weird bug, but for me if I select Top level summary and on the Advanced tab select Show all next to Subcategories, I only see the top level Categories.

When the unwanted subcategories are shown, does clicking on the minus sign next to the main Category name collapse the list, and are the totals then correct?

[adding after further sleuthing]

This is the Banking Transaction Report subtotaled by Category. The goal is to show all the transactions for each main Category, including those for any Subcategories, but with the Subcategories and their totals hidden.

With this report, I see this issue with one spending Category, where the Subcategory that is not properly hidden has expense transactions that came from split Deposits to an investing account. These were tax withholding on an IRA distributions.

There are similar problems with the Itemized Categories report.

dave344

Thank you Jim. I saw your post and I will contact Quicken Monday. Thanks again.

dave344

Jim Harmon: You asked if I was using the Itemized Categories report. No. I believe the report I am using was saved from the "Spending by Category" or "Where did I spend my money" default reports. I don't remember exactly how I created it but I set it up as an "Income Statement" to report the net of all categories. Here is a screen shot of the top of the report.

dave344

I contacted Quicken Support this afternoon and spoke with Jessica who was very helpful. They agreed to open a case for this issue. But they cautioned me that it may take several months to resolve. This type of support is beyond general technical support and requires scheduling and prioritization with the developer team. I'm okay waiting as long as I know it's being addressed. I'll check back with them in a month or two and update you here on the status.

The case number is 11751614.

Thank you everyone for your input.

Quicken Kristina

Hello @dave344,

Thank you for letting us know about this issue. I reviewed the case number you provided, and while I heard the agent promise that it would be escalated, there's no documentation of that escalation. Just to make sure the issue has been forwarded to our teams, I'll create a ticket on this side also.

Please navigate to Help>Report a Problem and send a problem report with log files attached and a sanitized data file (if you're willing). This information is necessary for our teams to investigate the issue. While you will not receive a response through this submission, these reports will help our teams in further investigating the issue. The more problem reports we receive, the better.

You can check the status of the issue by posting to this thread, or if this thread gets closed before the issue is resolved, you can create a new discussion (please make sure to reference the ticket number, CBT-671, so we can look it up).

We apologize for any inconvenience!

Thank you.    

(CTP-13045)

Jim_Harman

@dave344

I think there may be more than one related issue here that affects multiple reports.

To be completely clear about this issue you are seeing, do you want a report that just has the top level Categories with the total amount for each Category, as would typically be seen in an accountant's Income Statement, or do you want to see the Categories and the underlying transactions, as in your original post?

Those would be based on different built-in reports:

The "Where did I spend my money" EasyAnswer report is based on the Spending > Income and expense by Category report, does not include the transaction detail, and when there are Subcategories, the Category total is at the bottom. I do not see any problems with that report if I go to the Advanced customization tab and set the Subcategories to Hide all.

The Spending > Spending by Category report has the Category totals next to the Category or Subcategory names and also does not include the transaction detail.

The report titled "Show/Hide all" that you posted earlier today includes the transaction detail and is based on the report found at Banking > Transaction. As I posted earlier today, with that report I see the problem you describe when a split transaction is entered as part of a Deposit in an Investing account.

dave344

Thank you Jim. I use both types of reports: one that provides only category and subcategory totals and one that provides category totals with transaction detail. But I did not realize the problem only exists with reports that have the transaction detail.

So I think I can use the "Income and Expense by Category" report (w/o transaction detail) for export to Excel and avoid having to zero out subcategory totals to get the spreadsheet to sum properly.

Thank you for pointing that out.

dave344

Kristina:

Thank you for your help and prompt response. I submitted a problem report this morning with the following comment:

"This is case number CBT-671 (Originally reported as 11751614.), THis issue has been reported by other users (See the post "Subcategories: Hide All does not work" in the "Home› Quicken Classic for Windows› Reports (Windows" section of the Quicken community forums.) Basically the "Hide All" subcategory does not work as designed for a transaction related report when the underlying data includes transactions involving expenses paid from an investment account. See screenshot, forum comments and sanitized data file for more information."

Not sure what went wrong with setting up the initial case number but thank you for getting it straighten out. Let me know if you need any further info from me.

pablomiller

@dave344

Thanks to you for initiating and carrying forward this rather "interesting" exchange reflecting exceptional detective work by a capable group of folks that, out of necessity, are deeper into the quirks and bowels of Quicken than any user should really need to be. FWIW, I too am suffering from this exact issue, and I'm certain there are many more that simply haven't stumbled into or realized it … yet. I have greatly optimized my financial matters by using one of my main brokerage accounts as my "bank" to receive all income and pay any recurring expenses where credit cards are not a practical option. As a result, if I use the Debit Card on that account, or use the ACH feature on that account, AND it happens to be in a subcategory where the "hiding" doesn't work correctly, then it will show up as an unhidden subcategory in this report. For example, I have numerous subcategories under "Tax", such as Federal, State, Property, etc. All Estimated Federal and State Taxes and bi-annual local Property taxes are being paid out of this brokerage account. Yet, the only Subcategory that suffers from the "won't hide" issue is the Tax:State. There are numerous other notable examples, under other main Categories where this happens, and the common thread in ALL of them is that it involves a brokerage account rather than a bank account as the account where funds are either coming in or going it …. errors occur in both directions.

Looking forward to seeing this resolved … does anyone know if there's a sure-fire way to stay updated on this ? Does bookmarking it automatically generation notification of updates ?

Quicken Kristina

Hello All,

Our teams investigated and determined the specific circumstances that trigger the bug:  

The problem happens if there is a Withdraw/MiscExp/WriteChk transaction in an investment account and there is a split. In that case, the subcategory is not combined into the parent.

The issue is still being worked on. We do not currently have an ETA.

@pablomiller,

Since there isn't currently an alert for this issue, I would recommend bookmarking this discussion, since, depending on your notification preferences, that would ensure you're notified of any posts to this thread. You can ask for updates by posting to this discussion, or if the discussion gets closed before the issue is resolved, you can create a new discussion and ask about the status of ticket CTP-13045.

Thank you!

Rocket J Squirrel

The problem happens if there is a Withdraw/MiscExp/WriteChk transaction in an investment account and there is a split. In that case, the subcategory is not combined into the parent.

This explains what I am seeing. My property tax payment is one that refuses to hide subcategories. I pay it from a brokerage account and split it into ad valorem (deductible) and flat fees (non-deductible).

Jim_Harman

@Quicken Kristina Thanks for the update. Please note that the issue is not limited to split Withdraw, MiscExp, and WriteChk transactions.

As reported earlier in this discussion, I also see it with split Deposits, for example when an RMD from an IRA is deposited into a taxable brokerage account and taxes are withheld.

pablomiller

@Quicken Kristina Thanks for the updates. I can affirm, like @Jim_Harman, that I also have at least one instance of a Deposit (EFT) into my main taxable brokerage account generating the "won't hide" issue. In this case, only one item in the Split category was a subcategory, so the other item (a Main) did not generate an issue. As mentioned earlier, because I have begun using this brokerage account as my main income and expense pooling account, this issue will become ever more prominent if not resolved.

wiiiindy

I am glad I have a reasonably intelligent but non-accountant mind. I would never have considered using a brokerage account as my "main income and expense pooling account". I use an old-fashioned checking account as the center of my system and have no problems that cannot be explained by my own ignorance.

I am glad there are others who are so far into the weeds that they find and correct issues before they become my problem!!!

Thanks all.

Quicken Classic Deluxe for Windows R62.16 in Windows10 Pro (although "About" says Enterprise??)

User since 1994 36 current active accounts

mshiggins

Have any of you experiencing the issue considered using Show Cash in a Checking Account option?

CaliQkn

@pablomiller -You don't mention which brokerage the investment account on Quicken is set up for, but a lot of brokerages have enhanced their cash management options they offer to their clients. Being able to use investment accounts as a checking or spending account has become a important feature to attract new clients.

In that respect, @mshiggins brings up a very good point. There is a feature for taxable investment accounts in Quicken to show cash in a separate checking account. You might want to check it out to see how it works for you. I have found that it does take some getting used to, but it does effectively separate out the cash management portion for viewing in Quicken and for reports.

To see this option, go to the General tab in Account Details -

CaliQkn

@pablomiller before you turn this feature, please back up your data file, just in case. I have never had an issue with this feature. I have even gone back and forth between "showing" and "not showing" and never had an issue.

pablomiller

@CaliQkn , to your point about the Brokerage I use, I am now using Fidelity exclusively for a host of reasons that are important to me. Checking, Debit Cards, and very straightforward ACH and Bank Wire features, and competitive returns on uninvested core account cash are among them.

Thank you for the advice to make a backup, because I definitely need it, and will be going back. I tried the "Show cash in a checking account" tactic on one of my accounts, and perhaps it affected the prevalence of the problem. However, when I run a report, I'm typically looking across multiple years, looking for trends in the data. Because I have had multiple Brokerage accounts that have a few such transactions spread across multiple years, I'm not willing to incur the burden of this tactic just to cover for such an obvious software problem. The way I see it, Cash is an integral part of every Brokerage account and forcing that into some auxiliary "pseudo-checking account" is an undue burden and just a source of future confusion, errors, and tracking/correction burden.

CaliQkn

@pablomiller I completely understand. Wells Fargo offers Brokerage Cash Services for investment accounts, which I need to use. I tried using the checking account feature in Quicken, and found it somewhat confusing and cumbersome, so I switched back.