Why is the 401k entry doubled?

Zmode
Zmode Member ✭✭
edited March 25 in Investing (Windows)
The basic but unhelpful answer is that the amount in the 401k is shown as both a Securities Value (the real value) AND an identical amount of Cash Balance (which is actually $0 in Fidelity). A company-managed 401k does not hold cash, and it can be confirmed the 401k only holds invested funds.

My info:
Quicken Premier Subscription (as of yesterday)
New user, new account
Using Quicken Windows to log into Fidelity's Netbenefits automatically online, no file backups, no modifications to the data, nothing out of the basic usage of the software - this is a software error or settings issues not a user error. All other accounts are correct.

This error shows up on all devices/in the account as a whole.

Attempts at solving:
Remove Fidelity Netbenefits account, re-add
Delete "Cash" balance, it returns at next update

Answers

  • Frankx
    Frankx SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9
    HI @Zmode,

    The likely cause of this problem is "placeholders" that Quicken has added to the account.  It is likely that when you first downloaded, Quicken setup both placeholders for the account's investment holdings as well as a "cash balance" equal to the account's total market value. 

    To fix this - first go to "Edit" > "Preferences" > "Downloaded transactions" > click on the "settings" button next to "Compare account portfolio after download" > and click "Clear all" > then click "OK" and "OK".

    Next, open the account register and "left-click" on the "cash" transaction and select "Delete".  You should also modify other investment transactions in the account to properly reflect those transactions, which - at a minimum - should include the dates acquired.

    Here's an article explaining placeholders and how they work LINK, however my advice would be to avoid them at all cost.  

    Frankx

                            Quicken Home, Business & Rental Property - Windows 10-Home Version

                                             - - - - Quicken User since 1984 - - - 
      -  If you find this reply helpful, please click "Helpful" (below), so others will know! Thank you.  -

  • Zmode
    Zmode Member ✭✭
    > @Frankx said:
    > To fix this - first go to "Edit" > "Preferences" > "Downloaded transactions" > click on the "settings" button next to "Compare account portfolio after download" > and click "Clear all" > then click "OK" and "OK".

    Thank you for the swift reply! Unfortunately there were no placeholders in this list, yet I "clear all"ed anyway. Deleting the cash balance works temporarily yet when resyncing to Fidelity, the cash balance returns.
  • Zmode
    Zmode Member ✭✭
    To clarify, the account is explicitly labeled as not having any placeholders. So this is NOT a placeholder issue.
  • Frankx
    Frankx SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hi again @Zmode,

    If the issue isn't placeholders, and if a cash balance continues to appear after you download, then the only thing left seems to point to the data that Fidelity is providing in the download.  What method are you using to download data?

    Frankx

                            Quicken Home, Business & Rental Property - Windows 10-Home Version

                                             - - - - Quicken User since 1984 - - - 
      -  If you find this reply helpful, please click "Helpful" (below), so others will know! Thank you.  -

  • Zmode
    Zmode Member ✭✭
    I am using the method of having Quicken log in to Fidelity NetBenefits with my credentials.
  • Frankx
    Frankx SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Okay - that could be either "Direct Connect" or "Express Web Connect" - to find out, open the register > click on the "Gear" icon in the upper right > select "Edit Account Details" > then click on the "Online Services" tab > the connection method is at the bottom of the Online Setup box.

    Let me know.

    Frankx

                            Quicken Home, Business & Rental Property - Windows 10-Home Version

                                             - - - - Quicken User since 1984 - - - 
      -  If you find this reply helpful, please click "Helpful" (below), so others will know! Thank you.  -

  • Boatnmaniac
    Boatnmaniac SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    The connection method now also shows up at the top of the Account Register screen just below the Account Name.
    For Fidelity Net Benefits:  It should be Direct Connect.
    (QW Premier Subscription: R41.10 on Windows 10)
  • Chris_QPW
    Chris_QPW Member ✭✭✭✭
    Zmode said:
     Deleting the cash balance works temporarily yet when resyncing to Fidelity, the cash balance returns.
    Exactly what are you deleting?
    Signature:
    (I'm always using the latest Quicken Windows Premier subscription version)
    This is my website: http://www.quicknperlwiz.com/
  • Chris_QPW
    Chris_QPW Member ✭✭✭✭
    Chris_QPW said:
    Zmode said:
     Deleting the cash balance works temporarily yet when resyncing to Fidelity, the cash balance returns.
    Exactly what are you deleting?
    Are you using "Update Cash Balance"?

    If you are, not aren't deleting the cash, you are in fact putting in an entry remove the cash, which is a bit different.

    Based on reading the posts in these threads for some reason Fidelity and Quicken Support couldn't find the problem (read the last thread I posted above).

    That seems like very bad troubleshooting to me because the answer is going to be in the OFX logs.
    Help -> Log Files -> OFX Logs

    A bit the background on what Simple mode is doing.  When Quicken downloads the investment transactions, there is also a section for reporting the existing positions and cash balances.

    So, Simple mode looks at these positions and cash balances and then puts in entries in the register to adjust the current ones to match.  Clearly if you go in and put in a cash adjustment to zero, and then then download and the information say that there is cash in the account Quicken is going to put in another transaction to put the cash back in.

    To determine if Quicken is doing this wrong (doubtful because then it would be for all accounts/financial institutions) it just a matter of seeing what was sent, and the OFX log records exactly what was sent.

    You should be able to find this section which lists the cash balance that Fidelity sent.
                    <INVBAL>
                        <AVAILCASH>12.74
                        <MARGINBALANCE>0
                        <SHORTBALANCE>0
                        <BALLIST>
                            <BAL>
                                <NAME>MARGINCALL
                                <DESC>Margin Call
                                <BALTYPE>DOLLAR
                                <VALUE>0
                                <DTASOF>20220112041742.641
                            </BAL>
                            <BAL>
                                <NAME>FEDCALL
                                <DESC>Fed Call
                                <BALTYPE>DOLLAR
                                <VALUE>0
                                <DTASOF>20220112041742.641
                            </BAL>
                        </BALLIST>
                    </INVBAL>

    Signature:
    (I'm always using the latest Quicken Windows Premier subscription version)
    This is my website: http://www.quicknperlwiz.com/
  • Zmode
    Zmode Member ✭✭
    @Chris_QPW
    @Boatnmaniac
    @Frankx

    Hi all, thanks for all your attempts at helping!

    Yes, this is in Direct Connect mode.

    Yes, I am setting cash to 0 instead of deleting, I should be more precise in the language, sorry. I do not see any options for actually 'deleting' cash.

    I am looking through the OFX log, about 5000 lines of it, searching and checking all the 401k and other entries and there seems to be no <AVAILCASH> entries for the 401k at all. My other investments in other financial institutions do have that though even when the amount is 0. This is in line with the other recent thread indicating that Quicken seems to not know how to handle a lack of cash value being imported.
  • Chris_QPW
    Chris_QPW Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10
    Zmode said:
    @Chris_QPW
    @Boatnmaniac
    @Frankx

    This is in line with the other recent thread indicating that Quicken seems to not know how to handle a lack of cash value being imported.
    Have you searched for the cash amount in the OFX log?
    I might have the wrong field for a 401K.

    I seriously doubt it is the way Quicken handles a missing cash amount because it wouldn't know what amount to use.

    EDIT the only 401K data I have is for my wife's which is administrated at Merrill Lynch, and the only thing that is provided is a QFX file.  It doesn't have any balance in it other than the <TOTAL> field in the <INV401BAL> field.  I did some testing with it.

    I set the account to Simple investing, and then I set the cash balance to $20.  Switching back to Complete look at it, it put in this transaction:


    I switched back to simple investing, and then I imported the QFX file, and it set the cash balance back to zero. 
    Looking at it in complete mode, what it did is remove the above transaction.

    The next test I did is set the TOTAL field from INV401BAL to a different amount to see if Quicken uses this.  Like maybe subtracting the total value of the securities from it to get the cash balance.

    Quicken didn't change anything.  It isn't looking at this field.
    Signature:
    (I'm always using the latest Quicken Windows Premier subscription version)
    This is my website: http://www.quicknperlwiz.com/
  • Chris_QPW
    Chris_QPW Member ✭✭✭✭
    Zmode said:
    @Chris_QPW
    @Boatnmaniac
    @Frankx

    This is in line with the other recent thread indicating that Quicken seems to not know how to handle a lack of cash value being imported.
    I have a feeling it is the exact opposite.  Fidelity is putting in more fields and Quicken is picking up on those extra fields and doubling up when it shouldn't.

    I just saw this post from a person getting the same results from Merril Lync (Direct Downloaded not a QFX file like my wife's requires).
    https://community.quicken.com/discussion/7908304/how-can-i-prevent-quicken-double-counting-investment-account-cash-balances
    Signature:
    (I'm always using the latest Quicken Windows Premier subscription version)
    This is my website: http://www.quicknperlwiz.com/
  • Gregg Kessloff
    Gregg Kessloff Member ✭✭
    edited February 11
    I have submitted multiple support requests for quite a few months with no fix provided yet, from inside of Quicken Home Business & Rental Property subscription version R38.29 Build 27.1.38.29 regarding my Fidelity NetBenefits account update adding a cash balance that is exactly equal to my securities balance, even though I do not have a cash balance. My only workaround is to manually change the cash balance to zero each and every time I update my accounts. I also tried this with a brand new test account and the same thing happens.
  • Jim_Harman
    Jim_Harman SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    Did you use Help > Report a problem to report this issue? If so, you would be better served by contacting Quicken Support directly via phone or Chat.
    QWin Premier subscription
  • Zmode
    Zmode Member ✭✭
    @Chris_QPW

    Yes, the 401k value shows up as MKTVAL and INV401KBAL, TOTAL and NAME
    VestedValue also here:
    DESC
    TotalAssetsValue
    BALTYPE

    But none with anything related to cash.

    I talked to customer support and they blame everything except Quicken.
  • Zmode
    Zmode Member ✭✭
    I tried something, I don't consider it a solution, but it's better for now... changing the 401k from "Simple" to "Complete" allowed me to erase the cash entry and it stayed erased after resyncing the account (not a placeholder).

    I don't know what will happen now with "complete" over time, it may be even worse and more incorrect, but at least it's not double...
  • Zmode
    Zmode Member ✭✭
    @Chris_QPW
    Yes, the 401k value shows up as <MKTVAL> and <INV401KBAL><TOTAL> and <NAME>VestedValue<DESC> also here:

    <BAL><NAME>TotalAssetsValue<DESC>TotalAssetsValue<BALTYPE>DOLLAR<VALUE>

    But none with anything related to cash.
  • Chris_QPW
    Chris_QPW Member ✭✭✭✭
    Zmode said:
    I tried something, I don't consider it a solution, but it's better for now... changing the 401k from "Simple" to "Complete" allowed me to erase the cash entry and it stayed erased after resyncing the account (not a placeholder).

    I don't know what will happen now with "complete" over time, it may be even worse and more incorrect, but at least it's not double...
    Complete shouldn't have any problems, but it will be different as far as what you will have to do to maintain it.

    They work to different rules. For complete it is all about the transactions that are downloaded being correct.  With Simple it is all about the positions/balances being correct.

    Signature:
    (I'm always using the latest Quicken Windows Premier subscription version)
    This is my website: http://www.quicknperlwiz.com/
  • Chris_QPW
    Chris_QPW Member ✭✭✭✭
    BTW as far as the blame game goes.  If person researching this for Quicken Inc is actually competent, they should be able to point out to Fidelity the exact field that is either missing/added when it shouldn't/or incorrect.  Otherwise, and if they can't then it is Quicken that has the problem.

    They should also be able to create a QFX file with the problem to test with.
    Signature:
    (I'm always using the latest Quicken Windows Premier subscription version)
    This is my website: http://www.quicknperlwiz.com/
  • kmckinnon
    kmckinnon Member ✭✭
    I updated my accounts yesterday. My Fidelity NetBenefits accounts continue to show a balance of exactly twice what they should. These are Direct Connect using Simple Tracking Only. I edit the account and Set the Cash Value to 0 to temporarily resolve the problem.

    This appears to me (layman) to be Fidelity feeding this data as a way to summarize the Cash Value of the account and Quicken treating it as a Cash Holding within the account and ergo adding it to the other Holdings to determine the Balance. Left hand not knowing what the right hand is up to.
  • Frankx
    Frankx SuperUser ✭✭✭✭✭
    HI @kmckinnon,

    As noted in the posts above, this problem seems to be a problem with the data that Fidelity is transmitting during the download process.  As this is almost certainly being caused by Fidelity, it can only be corrected by Fidelity.  While I cannot say that this step will correct the current problems, I would suggest that you not use the "Simple Investing" method for this account.

    Frankx 

                            Quicken Home, Business & Rental Property - Windows 10-Home Version

                                             - - - - Quicken User since 1984 - - - 
      -  If you find this reply helpful, please click "Helpful" (below), so others will know! Thank you.  -

This discussion has been closed.