joint accounts: ownership multiplier ( 3 Legacy Votes)

Rick Gumpertz

Please add an ownership multiplier to the attributes for each account that I can use for joint accounts where I want to track only my share of a joint account (that has transactions downloaded from a bank or broker). 

This multiplier would be used only when computing my assets and/or net worth.  For example, if one third of the money (or shares) in an account were mine (and the other two thirds were for my co-owners), then setting the multiplier to 33.3333333% would result in only one third of the net account value being used in my Net Worth report. 

The default multiplier would, of course, be 100%.  Also, every report would have a (single) check-box controlling whether to apply the account multipliers or not.

Aside: To allow precise math for typical use, this multiplier might be better expressed as a divisor.  That is, a 1/3 or 33.3333333% share would be expressed as 3 and a 40% share as 2.5.  On the other hand, that would probably be confusing to explain.  Maybe allowing lots of digits after the decimal point would be the better solution.

Richard Kennedy

I concur. I have some joint assets with a sibling and they do not use Quicken (or even a computer!). It would be most useful to have an automated method to calculate my net worth calculation correctly.

RickO

Not to be a bubble burster, but Quicken is personal finance software. IOW, intended to be used by an individual or household. Given all the important features that have been requested and the relative rare need for this, I don't see it getting implemented anytime soon. But who knows?

One possible workaround: split the account into two, record the assets/value in each at the appropriate ratio and include only your part via Net Worth Report customization. But it might be easier to just break out a calculator.

volvogirl

Or export the report to Excel and add columns to do the splitting. Like a column for each person.

Jim_Harman

Or set up the joint account as a Separate account in Quicken so it will not be included by default in your reports or net worth.


Then make another normal account with 1000 shares of a made-up security called "Share of joint account" or whatever. Periodically you can set the share price of that security so that the total value matches your share of the joint account.

You can also set the asset allocation of the made up security to match that of the joint account, so you will get a correct picture of your overall asset allocation.

Rick Gumpertz

That is a twisted way to accomplish something.  The whole idea of Quicken is to AUTOMATE things, not add complicated manual updating activity by the user.

Rick Gumpertz

Not to be a bubble burster, but Quicken is personal finance software. IOW, intended to be used by an individual or household. Given all the important features that have been requested and the relative rare need for this, I don't see it getting implemented anytime soon. But who knows?

One possible workaround: split the account into two, record the assets/value in each at the appropriate ratio and include only your part via Net Worth Report customization. But it might be easier to just break out a calculator.

This doesn't work well for accounts with frequent activity, such as joint checking accounts.

Jim_Harman

Sorry if my idea does not work for your situation.



You could still use Quicken to track all the transactions in the joint account, which I would think is the major burden.



If your goal is to see the impact of the account on your net worth, perhaps a monthly update would suffice, so only one calculation and one manual entry per month would be needed.

NotACPA

Not to be a bubble burster, but Quicken is personal finance software. IOW, intended to be used by an individual or household. Given all the important features that have been requested and the relative rare need for this, I don't see it getting implemented anytime soon. But who knows?

One possible workaround: split the account into two, record the assets/value in each at the appropriate ratio and include only your part via Net Worth Report customization. But it might be easier to just break out a calculator.

I concur with RickO on this one.  A single Q data file is supposed to hold ONLY the financial info for a single tax entity.
From your description, it sounds like some sort of partnership account is being discussed ... and that partnership account doesn't belong in Q because the OP doesn't own ALL  of it.

Try Quickbooks,  which already has the function that's being requested here.

q_lurker

@Rick:  While I understand what you are asking for, I don't think you have gotten to a level of selling the concept.  In particular, what accounts and circumstances are you seeing the need for such a factorization?  Two spouses filing jointly doesn't apply.  Two spouses filing taxes separately, might (I don't know).  Siblings?  Again, I can't say.  Three business partners?  Not a likely sale as that is not the demographic for Quicken's business modules.  So what are your known cases for needing this type of factor?  

This multiplier would be used only when computing my assets and/or net worth.

Why?  I understand that from your side - that is all you are interested in.  But from Quicken's side, what is the rationale for having a partial ownership account but including 100% of the income in tax projections or reports?  Or 100% of the expenses in budgeting considerations?  Seems to me that virtually every aspect of Quicken would need to consider this ownership factor.  That then adds substantial complexity to the breadth of the idea. 

I am not trying to rain on your parade or squelch your offering, but it needs to be better conceptualized, IMO.  

Rick Gumpertz

OK, I was too quick when I specified assets and/or net worth.  Tax projections would also use the multiplier, as would budgeting.
Simple use case: My children and I jointly own assets in an account. My share is 20%.  Each of two children owns 40%.  If I "Keep this account separate", then my assets are understated.  If I don't, my assets are overstated.  In other words, Quicken already supports something like this option but is limited to only two possible multipliers: 0% and 100%,
Another, similar use case: I beneficially own assets in a Investment Club.  I can download transactions for the Investment Club as a whole.  I want to include in my net wortyh, and such, only my share of the club's assets.

NotACPA

OK, I was too quick when I specified assets and/or net worth.  Tax projections would also use the multiplier, as would budgeting.
Simple use case: My children and I jointly own assets in an account. My share is 20%.  Each of two children owns 40%.  If I "Keep this account separate", then my assets are understated.  If I don't, my assets are overstated.  In other words, Quicken already supports something like this option but is limited to only two possible multipliers: 0% and 100%,
Another, similar use case: I beneficially own assets in a Investment Club.  I can download transactions for the Investment Club as a whole.  I want to include in my net wortyh, and such, only my share of the club's assets.

Excel.  Even QB won't do what you're asking ... because it doesn't support investment accounts.

Unknown

Since 1991, I have used Quicken to track my personal finances. I agree with the desirability of the simple added Quicken feature that Mr. Gumpertz proposes. My son and I recently purchased a multifamily rental property, each contributing half to the purchase. I would like my Net Worth report to reflect 50% of the values of each of the three accounts I maintain in Quicken for this property: the Property itself (showing purchase price and accumulated appreciation); the Mortgage account (reflecting the initial mortgage balance and subsequent payoffs); and the Brokerage account (containing cash and working capital for the property).

I was planning to implement the report I want by exporting Quicken's Net Worth report to Excel and recalculating there. But I would love to see the capability built in to Quicken. It doesn't seem like this would be difficult for you to implement. For my use, the multipliers could be tied to the Net Worth report only. More uses for other cases could be added by making the multipliers be more global.

Unknown

Since 1991, I have used Quicken to track my personal finances. I agree with the desirability of the simple added Quicken feature that Mr. Gumpertz proposes. My son and I recently purchased a multifamily rental property, each contributing half to the purchase. I would like my Net Worth report to reflect 50% of the values of each of the three accounts I maintain in Quicken for this property: the Property itself (showing purchase price and accumulated appreciation); the Mortgage account (reflecting the initial mortgage balance and subsequent payoffs); and the Brokerage account (containing cash and working capital for the property).

I was planning to implement the report I want by exporting Quicken's Net Worth report to Excel and recalculating there. But I would love to see the capability built in to Quicken. It doesn't seem like this would be difficult for you to implement. For my use, the multipliers could be tied to the Net Worth report only. More uses for other cases could be added by making the multipliers be more global.

It doesn't seem like this would be difficult for you to implement.

You obviously haven't been a Quicken user for very long.

EVERYTHING is difficult to implement in Quicken.

And as pointed out:

1 Quicken is PERSONAL finance management software...not implemented for partnerships, S Corps or such.

2 Aside from a few users, this isn't something that the vast majority of mainstream Quicken users would have any use for.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but I wouldn't think this is something Quicken developers would have any interest in adding.  

But then again... you never know. 

Rick Gumpertz

Since 1991, I have used Quicken to track my personal finances. I agree with the desirability of the simple added Quicken feature that Mr. Gumpertz proposes. My son and I recently purchased a multifamily rental property, each contributing half to the purchase. I would like my Net Worth report to reflect 50% of the values of each of the three accounts I maintain in Quicken for this property: the Property itself (showing purchase price and accumulated appreciation); the Mortgage account (reflecting the initial mortgage balance and subsequent payoffs); and the Brokerage account (containing cash and working capital for the property).

I was planning to implement the report I want by exporting Quicken's Net Worth report to Excel and recalculating there. But I would love to see the capability built in to Quicken. It doesn't seem like this would be difficult for you to implement. For my use, the multipliers could be tied to the Net Worth report only. More uses for other cases could be added by making the multipliers be more global.

I understand that this is not a high priority idea.

As for use case, many Quicken users may be in Investment clubs or partnerships with family members.

NotACPA

Since 1991, I have used Quicken to track my personal finances. I agree with the desirability of the simple added Quicken feature that Mr. Gumpertz proposes. My son and I recently purchased a multifamily rental property, each contributing half to the purchase. I would like my Net Worth report to reflect 50% of the values of each of the three accounts I maintain in Quicken for this property: the Property itself (showing purchase price and accumulated appreciation); the Mortgage account (reflecting the initial mortgage balance and subsequent payoffs); and the Brokerage account (containing cash and working capital for the property).

I was planning to implement the report I want by exporting Quicken's Net Worth report to Excel and recalculating there. But I would love to see the capability built in to Quicken. It doesn't seem like this would be difficult for you to implement. For my use, the multipliers could be tied to the Net Worth report only. More uses for other cases could be added by making the multipliers be more global.

many Quicken users may be in Investment clubs or partnerships

Then they're using an inappropriate product. Q is intended for individuals and families ... AKA, a single Tax Entity.

It's not intended for either grouping that you cite.  And, really, doesn't work well for those groupings.

Why does this thread bring to mind the old saying: "When all that you've got it a hammer ... everything looks like a nail"?

Rick Gumpertz

Since 1991, I have used Quicken to track my personal finances. I agree with the desirability of the simple added Quicken feature that Mr. Gumpertz proposes. My son and I recently purchased a multifamily rental property, each contributing half to the purchase. I would like my Net Worth report to reflect 50% of the values of each of the three accounts I maintain in Quicken for this property: the Property itself (showing purchase price and accumulated appreciation); the Mortgage account (reflecting the initial mortgage balance and subsequent payoffs); and the Brokerage account (containing cash and working capital for the property).

I was planning to implement the report I want by exporting Quicken's Net Worth report to Excel and recalculating there. But I would love to see the capability built in to Quicken. It doesn't seem like this would be difficult for you to implement. For my use, the multipliers could be tied to the Net Worth report only. More uses for other cases could be added by making the multipliers be more global.

I, at least, would like to track MY portion of joint investment accounts that I hold with family members.  That's pretty close to being personal.

Unknown

Since 1991, I have used Quicken to track my personal finances. I agree with the desirability of the simple added Quicken feature that Mr. Gumpertz proposes. My son and I recently purchased a multifamily rental property, each contributing half to the purchase. I would like my Net Worth report to reflect 50% of the values of each of the three accounts I maintain in Quicken for this property: the Property itself (showing purchase price and accumulated appreciation); the Mortgage account (reflecting the initial mortgage balance and subsequent payoffs); and the Brokerage account (containing cash and working capital for the property).

I was planning to implement the report I want by exporting Quicken's Net Worth report to Excel and recalculating there. But I would love to see the capability built in to Quicken. It doesn't seem like this would be difficult for you to implement. For my use, the multipliers could be tied to the Net Worth report only. More uses for other cases could be added by making the multipliers be more global.

"You obviously haven't been a Quicken user for very long."

27 years.

"It doesn't seem like this would be difficult for you to implement."

Been writing computer software since 1961.

"Q is intended for individuals and families ... AKA, a single Tax Entity."

Says who?

smayer97

Since 1991, I have used Quicken to track my personal finances. I agree with the desirability of the simple added Quicken feature that Mr. Gumpertz proposes. My son and I recently purchased a multifamily rental property, each contributing half to the purchase. I would like my Net Worth report to reflect 50% of the values of each of the three accounts I maintain in Quicken for this property: the Property itself (showing purchase price and accumulated appreciation); the Mortgage account (reflecting the initial mortgage balance and subsequent payoffs); and the Brokerage account (containing cash and working capital for the property).

I was planning to implement the report I want by exporting Quicken's Net Worth report to Excel and recalculating there. But I would love to see the capability built in to Quicken. It doesn't seem like this would be difficult for you to implement. For my use, the multipliers could be tied to the Net Worth report only. More uses for other cases could be added by making the multipliers be more global.

Yes, it is circular reasoning...
Quicken does not handle situation x because it is only intended for situation y (often presumed, since is not advertised as such).
Since Quicken is intended for situation y (again presumed), it should not be made to handle situation x.

In other words, because it does not do it now, it should not be made to do it.

P.S. I am not saying I am for or against this idea thread, just pointing out possible circular logic.

Tom Young

In any case, every owner of a "Joint Account" has 100% rights to everything in the account.  You, or any of your children, could clean out that account tomorrow.

Set up a partnership and account for it using Quickbooks. 

Rick Gumpertz

So much flaming over a simple suggestion.  It may or may not be worth implementing.  Just posted it to put my wish on the list.

Arguing over things like the suitability of using Joint Accounts and split ownership) is totally irrelevant: they exist and are used for many reasons!

Arguing over what Quicken IS (or should be) is also irrelevant: that will be determined by Quicken, Inc.

mshiggins

So much flaming over a simple suggestion.  It may or may not be worth implementing.  Just posted it to put my wish on the list.

Arguing over things like the suitability of using Joint Accounts and split ownership) is totally irrelevant: they exist and are used for many reasons!

Arguing over what Quicken IS (or should be) is also irrelevant: that will be determined by Quicken, Inc.

I don't see flaming, I see users expressing differing opinions. Quicken Inc will want to listen to and consider all the various viewpoints on posted suggestions when deciding which ideas to implement.

Jim_Harman

This is probably not the solution you are looking for, but another way to adjust your net worth for your share of a joint account would be to track the full value of account in your Quicken file and use a Property and Debt account to track the (negative) value of other partners' share of the account. 

Unknown

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Feature Request.


Hello,


I would like to see Quicken create the option to have a percentage of account ownership when creating an account. My girlfriend and I have our own bank accounts for discretionary spending. For housing and joint bills we have a joint account and we also have a joint mortgage. I do not track her personal discretionary account but I do track the joint and mortgage accounts because those directly affect me.


For our joint account I only own 50% of the account and my girlfriend owns the other 50%. This is the same for the mortgage. So it would be amazing if I could go under the account settings and specify that I own 50% of the account so the net worth and reports will accurately reflect the amount of money that I spent/received rather than what we spent combined.


I have talked to some other people that are in similar situations and others that have invested in rental properties with other people (sometimes more than one other). With the rental properties they could set it to 33.33% if split equally between three people or whatever percentage they want.


I think it would be a great feature to accurately reflect that not all people have full ownership for their accounts/assets.


Thanks for your time and consideration.

NotACPA

Since 1991, I have used Quicken to track my personal finances. I agree with the desirability of the simple added Quicken feature that Mr. Gumpertz proposes. My son and I recently purchased a multifamily rental property, each contributing half to the purchase. I would like my Net Worth report to reflect 50% of the values of each of the three accounts I maintain in Quicken for this property: the Property itself (showing purchase price and accumulated appreciation); the Mortgage account (reflecting the initial mortgage balance and subsequent payoffs); and the Brokerage account (containing cash and working capital for the property).

I was planning to implement the report I want by exporting Quicken's Net Worth report to Excel and recalculating there. But I would love to see the capability built in to Quicken. It doesn't seem like this would be difficult for you to implement. For my use, the multipliers could be tied to the Net Worth report only. More uses for other cases could be added by making the multipliers be more global.

slim to none

I'm not sure that the odds are THAT high.

Bob_L

Instead of a multiplier, maybe a better approach might be to allow asset and liability sub-accounts. (Like in quickbooks). Then balance sheet type of reports like net worth could be run that either include or exclude the various sub-accounts.

Rick Gumpertz

Instead of a multiplier, maybe a better approach might be to allow asset and liability sub-accounts. (Like in quickbooks). Then balance sheet type of reports like net worth could be run that either include or exclude the various sub-accounts.

If that were done, I would need/want it for banking and investment accounts too.  I suppose others might want it for loans and credit cards.

Do sub-accounts provide for automatic allocation/splitting of assets, liabilities, purchase, sales, etc. in the top-level account?  Downloaded transactions too?  All of that would be needed as well.

Bob_L

Instead of a multiplier, maybe a better approach might be to allow asset and liability sub-accounts. (Like in quickbooks). Then balance sheet type of reports like net worth could be run that either include or exclude the various sub-accounts.

Sorry, I should have used quicken terms. Instead of quickbooks terms. That is I would think a meaningful start could be for checking accounts and asset accounts. Mortgages might be messy. Investment accounts holding securities would really be messy so that might be too much to ask for as well. Credit card accounts seem unnecessary in that presumably different owners would use different cards with separate accounts if the liability was in fact separate.

Having said this, I personally am neutral on it. That is, the number of users that would benefit from something like this is needed in order to justify something like this.


The notion of automatic splitting makes no sense to me.

Rick Gumpertz

Instead of a multiplier, maybe a better approach might be to allow asset and liability sub-accounts. (Like in quickbooks). Then balance sheet type of reports like net worth could be run that either include or exclude the various sub-accounts.

Given what you just said, a fractional ownership factor seems cleaner. than sub-accounts  Has no affect on updates.  Most importantly, the underlying transactions and balances are not affected.

Another way to look at this is QW already has "separate" accounts.  This feature would offer "partially owned, partially separate" accounts.

Finally, a differnet way to implement this might be to implement (read-only) "view accounts".  The joint account would be unaffected by any changes.  The "view" account would shadow the joint account except that the transaction values would be an appropriate fraction of the underlying joint account.  To include the fraction in Net Worth, the underlying joint account could be marked "separate" and the view account would not be.

There are lots of ways to get the desired functionality.  I doubt Quicken will implement any of them.  Nevertheless, it never hurts to ask.

JRuff

I am 10000% with you on needing this feature.  In fact, I am about to delete Quicken because of this.

I have a joint bank account with my brother, joint ownership in a building, joint ownership of a car.  I can't say that i own 50% of this?  I can't run a personal financial statement from the software?  Well that's the whole point of having this software for me.  I can work around the building and the car manually, though it's stupid.  The bank account is an exercise in pointlessness.  I don't need the software if it can't track my money.  

I have picked the wrong software.  This is a simple household budget software with no accommodation for a more complicated investor with accounting knowledge.  I will be moving to actual accounting software.

buck9063

I also heartily vote for this feature and agree with Mr. Gumpertz, Jake, and JRuff. I've always wanted and been looking for this feature. My partner and I have been together for 20 years, but have always maintained our own financial accounts and records (in addition to my partner maintaining our joint financial accounts and records). He' s used Quicken desktop forever, since long before we met, meticulously tracking his finances all these years. I'm a recent refugee from Mint, which I found wanting. We have no interest in combining our record keeping. I'm fine with not including our joint bank accounts in my Quicken (since he does such a great job of it already, and the joint bank accounts add up to a relatively small amount of money), but I would really love to track our sizeable mortgage along with all my other assets in Quicken. As Mr Gumpertz points out, regardless of whether I import 0% or 100% of the mortgage (the only options currently afforded me by Quicken), my net worth and other mortgage calculations are incorrect.