Quicken for Mac v6.1 Released

jacobs

Well, it turns out after more conversation in that thread, the original poster was wanting to create a QuickFill rule without a renaming rule, but QuickFill rules are tied to Payee names in the database; he also needs a renaming rule to do what he wants. But the point I raised here remains valid: being able to parse the text string from the FI which may have digits and not other characters the program is treating as delimiters currently.

Chris_QPW

jacobs said:

Well, it turns out after more conversation in that thread, the original poster was wanting to create a QuickFill rule without a renaming rule, but QuickFill rules are tied to Payee names in the database; he also needs a renaming rule to do what he wants. But the point I raised here remains valid: being able to parse the text string from the FI which may have digits and not other characters the program is treating as delimiters currently.

Well for every person that wants "contains" to match any character string, I think you will find another that it causes them problems.  Basically no matter which way you go you end up either not being able to do the matching what would like or have usability problems.  Or at least the Windows developer think/thought that way.

Well think that I can give a bit of history Quicken Windows is in order.

For renaming rules Quicken Windows use to have:
StartsWith:
Contains:

And the Contains matched the characters the user put in, no matter where they were in the downloaded payee string.  There was two problems with that.  One is was "literal", so if a person had rule with "My Payee" it wouldn't match "My  Payee".  The new "Contains" takes them as words and as such there can be different amount of white space and still match.  But the main problem comes in when the payee is very short.  Like CAT.  That ends up matching parts of payees it shouldn't.  Even with "Contains" using "words" we still get people that find they have created a renaming rule that matches most of their downloaded payees, and wonder why.

So neither way is perfect.  Of course one could have an option for this.  But that then leads into something else that seems to be a theme of the Windows development history, that they need to protect the Quicken user from themselves.  I don't think it has ever come up as this exact option, so maybe that is viable, but there is a certain truth to having to protect the users from themselves.  On this exact subject it has been proposed many times that regular expressions should be allowed.  And frankly I think that would be a disaster, especially the way it works right now in Quicken Windows.

Yes they would "solve" the problem of being able to craft a match for basically anything, but at the same time they would create a support nightmare.

I'm an expert on regular expressions and sometimes I have to do tests to be sure I got them right.  And as it sits in Quicken Windows the only way you can test this is to import a payee.  I can do that with QFX files, but the average person won't (and it is pain to do this way).  As such the only time they know if the change they made is correct is when they download the payee again.

But yes this exact problem with a payee name surrounded by other characters has come up on the Windows side, with no real good solution to provide for the user.  Maybe both (including Mobile/Web) could implement an option like that.

smayer97

Chris_QPW said:

...

Yes they would "solve" the problem of being able to craft a match for basically anything, but at the same time they would create a support nightmare.
...

I think that is hyperbolic at best. 

What I can say is that in QM2007 there is a Contains, Starts With and a Matches Exactly option for renaming rules, and Contains matches no matter where the text is. This was not a support nightmare. It works as expected.

Chris_QPW

smayer97 said:

Chris_QPW said:

...

Yes they would "solve" the problem of being able to craft a match for basically anything, but at the same time they would create a support nightmare.
...

I think that is hyperbolic at best. 

The context of that statement might not be clear.  I meant allowing the user to use regular expressions.  They are powerful, but very complicated.  Most users would mess them up and the support people would have to deal with it.

jacobs

Full-on regular expressions are undoubtedly too complicated for most users to know how to construct and use successfully in Quicken.

The set-up @smayer97 refers to from Quicken 2007 -- with a simple drop-down menu to choose between exact match, contains, starts with or ends with -- doesn't seem to be overly complicated for users:



But the reply from @Quicken Marcus indicates they can't do this because Windows tokenizes individual words, and Quicken Mac has had to follow suit because of the shared mobile app.

Chris said there were two problems when Quicken Windows had similar search options. First was that a rule with "My Payee" it wouldn't match "My  Payee". I guess I'd question how likely it is that a financial institution is inserting two spaces or delimiters between the words a user enters to search for. Sure, it could happen, but it seems like a far less-frequent issue than the opposite we have now: the FI sends "MyPayee" instead of "My Payee", but the user can't set up a search for just "contains 'Payee' "because Quicken requires separate words.

The second problem was people searching for short text like "cat". I don't see how tokenizing words makes this any better. Actually, I think it's worse, because people will write a rule for "Payee contains 'cat' " and think it will match anything which, um, contains "cat" -- when in fact it will only find Payees with a discrete word "cat". The flip side is if it did a search for "contains 'cat' " and matched a Payee which contained "category", I think most people would be able to look at that result, see what happened, and make a change.

Even with "Contains" using "words" we still get people that find they have created a renaming rule that matches most of their downloaded payees, and wonder why.

Yes, some people have limited grasp of anything that's not incredibly simple. So they get it wrong whether there's a "contains" search or a tokenized word search. I'd argue that a contains search would be a more powerful tool to provide users who grasp the concept, and not appreciably worse for those who don't. So I'm favor giving the user the more useful, powerful tool.

Or what about introducing a simple wildcard character without going full-on regex. Let a user search for "cat" or "cat*" or "*cat" or "*cat*". No or's. No not's. No concatenation. No parentheses. Keep it to a simple, single wildcard character that many people already understand, with a few short examples in the dialog box to illustrate. That replaces the need for is/contains/starts with/ends with operators, but allows much more flexibility for creating a rule than currently exists.

But again, it sounds like senior Quicken management would need to decide to make such a change across the Mac, Windows and cloud platforms, and direct each team to re-write their code to do it. How likely is that? Sigh.

smayer97

jacobs said:

Full-on regular expressions are undoubtedly too complicated for most users to know how to construct and use successfully in Quicken.

The set-up @smayer97 refers to from Quicken 2007 -- with a simple drop-down menu to choose between exact match, contains, starts with or ends with -- doesn't seem to be overly complicated for users:

...  So I'm favor giving the user the more useful, powerful tool. ...

But again, it sounds like senior Quicken management would need to decide to make such a change across the Mac, Windows and cloud platforms, and direct each team to re-write their code to do it. How likely is that? Sigh.

And the functionality allows adding multiple criteria that act as an OR function between each entry in the renaming rule.

I am hugely dependent on at the very least the same functionality as QM2007. Hopefully they figure out a way to make this happen.

Chris_QPW

Or was about introducing a simple wildcard character without going full-on regex. Let a user search for "cat" or "cat*" or "*cat" or "*cat*".

This is actually called "file wildcard syntax", and I agree most people understand it, and it can be almost as powerful as regular expressions for the right application.

Just looking at your example with just * you can basically replace all of this with one text box:

Contains: *cat* 

Is: cat

Starts with: cat*

Ends with: *cat

And it allows for ones that aren't on here.  Like: *cat*dog*fish

BTW with "file wildcards" there is also ? meaning any one character, which may or may not be worth using too (seldom used or understood by the average person).

"New contains" where it is by "word context" that is the one that is harder, but you could easily just have an option like "Match Words".  But in truth I bet just adding * as a wild card would allow for pretty much anything people need to match or you could have an "Match Words" check box.

In fact since you would need a way to go from the old form to the new form, you could have that check box and make it the default.

Chris_QPW

BTW if it is possible to convince people that this should be changed it would be really nice to have an option to restrict a renaming rule to a give list of accounts.

smayer97

Chris_QPW said:

BTW if it is possible to convince people that this should be changed it would be really nice to have an option to restrict a renaming rule to a give list of accounts.

If I understand you correctly, this has already been requested here:

Ability for Categorization tied to Payee (QuickFill) to be acct dependent

The reply is:

"Not Planned

Unfortunately, the amount of work this would take means that we won't consider this idea right now."

Chris_QPW

smayer97 said:

Chris_QPW said:

BTW if it is possible to convince people that this should be changed it would be really nice to have an option to restrict a renaming rule to a give list of accounts.

If I understand you correctly, this has already been requested here:

Ability for Categorization tied to Payee (QuickFill) to be acct dependent

The reply is:

"Not Planned

Unfortunately, the amount of work this would take means that we won't consider this idea right now."

Well sort of, it should be done on the Renaming rules, but the answer given is "incorrect" or maybe "incomplete".

At a minimum level it could be implemented as one more field in each "rule" for the account instead of a list of accounts if that is the stumbling block.  Not quite as useful as multiple accounts, but still very useful.

So the code is:

1. Add pulldown menu that selects an account.
2. Add field for the account name to database record that stores the renaming rule.  (It gets saved along with the other fields in the "renaming rule record", with a wild card entry if the user doesn't select any).
3. When in the account and going through the renaming rules for the downloaded transactions, retrieve gets this field at the same time you get all the other "renaming rule record" fields.
4. It is a given that you know what account you are applying the renaming rules to, so simply extend the If statement for a match to include the account name or if it is the wild card entry it matches any account.

I suspect the real answer is more along the lines of what Marcus said for the rest of this.  As in "To do this we need to convince the Windows, Mobile, Web, and server developers to also do it.  And our company works like a bunch of different separated companies and there isn't any way we can convince everyone to do something no matter how trivial all together.  Except when they are dictating to us that it has to be this way because that is the way they already implemented something."

jacobs

This has been a good discussion, folks, although we have really strayed from the purpose of this thread.

@Chris_QPW  Yes, I was suggesting that the single wildcard would be understood by most people, and would be more powerful than what we have today. I would not introduce the single character "?" or anything more that makes it more flexible/powerful but makes it more complex and more likely to generate the support headaches that led them to dumb it down previously. 

As to account-specific rules, as @smayer97 noted, this idea was reviewed by the development and product teams last year and marked as "Not Planned" because it would involve significant re-writing of code. They didn't say "never!", but I don't think it's worth discussing the fine points of how it could be implemented if they've already considered it and decided it's not going to be on the planning roadmap anytime soon.

jacobs

@Quicken Marcus Quicken Mac allows users to reconcile their investment accounts, but the new Reconciliation History/Re-Reconcile functionality remains grayed out for investment accounts even after new reconciliations. I know that the data for investment accounts is somewhat different than banking accounts, but it would be helpful to know if this is this a bug, something which didn't get done in time for 6.1 but is being worked on for the future, or is something you don't plan to have for investment accounts? There have been several questions about this in other threads on the forum. Thanks.

caram

jacobs said:

Or was about introducing a simple wildcard character without going full-on regex. Let a user search for "cat" or "cat*" or "*cat" or "*cat*". 

I've just discovered that you can add your own tokens. So far, I was only deleting unwanted ones. But if you type some word and press space, it will turn into a token, just like for tags.

This will be quite handy.

smayer97

caram said:

jacobs said:

Or was about introducing a simple wildcard character without going full-on regex. Let a user search for "cat" or "cat*" or "*cat" or "*cat*". 

I've just discovered that you can add your own tokens. So far, I was only deleting unwanted ones. But if you type some word and press space, it will turn into a token, just like for tags.

This will be quite handy.

How?

RickO

caram said:

I've just discovered that you can add your own tokens. 

Yes, screenshots please.

jacobs

caram said:

jacobs said:

Or was about introducing a simple wildcard character without going full-on regex. Let a user search for "cat" or "cat*" or "*cat" or "*cat*". 

I've just discovered that you can add your own tokens. So far, I was only deleting unwanted ones. But if you type some word and press space, it will turn into a token, just like for tags. This will be quite handy.

@caram Are you talking about typing in the Renaming Rules window? That's what this discussion was about. And yes, typing any word separated by a space (or any other special character other than letters and numbers) becomes a token for the renaming rule. That's the way it's been since Renaming Rules were added last year. I guess I'm not understanding what you are finding a new and useful discovery?

caram

jacobs said:

@caram Are you talking about typing in the Renaming Rules window? That's what this discussion was about. And yes, typing any word separated by a space (or any other special character other than letters and numbers) becomes a token for the renaming rule. That's the way it's been since Renaming Rules were added last year. I guess I'm not understanding what you are finding a new and useful discovery?

Yes, this is exactly what I was talking about. It seems I was not the only one who did not notice this feature earlier. Although upon reflexion it not may as useful as I thought initially, since why would you add a token that was not in the bank label in the first place, and which otherwise would have been tokenized by QM already?

caram

%R

This shortcut is allocated twice:

1. Accounts > Reconcile Account...
2. Register > Transaction > Mark as Paid

It would be good to allocate a different key shortcut to Mark As Paid.

caram

Report > Export > Copy to Clipboard + Paste in Excel

Decimals are lost in Excel.

This is not just Excel. Cents are also lost even when I paste inside a text editor like Sublime Text 3.

I think this was raised a while ago.

Environment:

• macOS 11.2.1
• Language & Region > Advanced > General > Number Sep. > Decimal: ","

jacobs

caram said:

Report > Export > Copy to Clipboard + Paste in Excel

Decimals are lost in Excel. Cents are also lost even when I paste inside a text editor like Sublime Text 3.
Language & Region > Advanced > General > Number Sep. > Decimal: ","

@caram  It seems this is only when the Mac is set to use a comma for decimals. There is no problem with losing cents when a period is used for decimals. I suggest you report this using Help > Report a Problem, as this should be easily verified, and it likely won't be seen here.

caram said:

%R

This shortcut is allocated twice:

1. Accounts > Reconcile Account...
2. Register > Transaction > Mark as Paid

It would be good to allocate a different key shortcut to Mark As Paid.

Command-R is assigned to Transaction > Mark As Paid. Accounts > Reconcile Account does not have a keyboard shortcut by default. If you are seeing Command-R for that command, you apparently created it yourself.

You can fix this, as well as assign command keys to your likening, by going to System Preferences > Keyboard > Shortcuts. Click on App Shortcuts on the left side, select or Add Quicken on the right side, and then you can add or change keyboard shortcuts for any menu command.

Rick2022

@Quicken_Marcus

I reported this back in the 6.0 Release thread but the issue is back.  Wells Fargo Asset Management changed their website a few days ago and Quicken can no longer connect.  I just tried again and "Direct Connect" is the still the only option.  The bank selected is "Wells Fargo Asset Management" which is the correct bank.  Here is the screenshot of the error.  (I X'd out my real Login ID for this image.)

As I stated above, this worked before their website was changed.  I am able to log in when I open the site in a web browser.

jacobs

@Rlck  I suggest for an issue like this that you call Quicken Support. they can view the issue with you and collect the notes and log files to escalate this to the team that handles connectivity issues. It's likely that Quicken connectivity needs to make some change due to their website change. (Issues like that are not handled by the developers under Marcus, but the connectivity team at Intuit.)

Before calling Support, though, I'd suggest an additional troubleshooting step. Create a new temporary Quicken file (File > New) and try to set up your Wells Fargo Asset Management account. If you can set it up, log in, and download transactions, then it points to something wrong in your database. If it doesn't work, then it points to a Quicken connectivity problem. (I'm sure a Quicken Support person will want to go through this exercise as part of their troubleshooting.) 

Rick2022

@jacobs
Thanks for your response.  When it occurred in 6.0, I created a post, sent the log file to Quicken and called support.  Support didn't want to even look at the log file and they also suggested then to create a new file and try to connect.  I went through that with them and it didn't work.  Then they basically said thanks for calling and no further help.

When I posted the issue in the 6.0 Release thread, @Quicken_Marcus posted back that it was a known issue and they were working on it.  A few days later it was working again.  So I thought I'd post it here.

I did create a new Quicken test file today and it won't connect in the new file either.  With the issue posted in the 6.0 Release thread, I was trying to connect to the same webpage that had worked for years.  Now, Wells Fargo Asset Management is still using the same website but the log in page (and subsequent pages) have been changed.  

Any other ideas?

jacobs

@RIck  I obviously can't speak for Marcus, but I will note he typically reads and responds on these threads in the immediate aftermath of a new release, but not as often later.

I went back and looked at your exchange in the 6.0 thread, and he said what I expected: it was a connectivity problem, not a problem with the Quicken Mac application. Connectivity issues are handled by Intuit under contract to Quicken, and there's no way to contact them directly -- you have to get Quicken Support to escalate the issue.

I don't know why the person you spoke with would get and see that connectivity didn't work in a new test file and then end the call. I'm sure it's frustrating, but I'd try calling Support again. Hopefully you get a better Support representative, but if the agent doesn't take steps to document and escalate the issue connectivity issue themself, then ask to speak with a supervisor about escalating it. (And ask specifically for your case number.) 

caram

jacobs said:

Command-R is assigned to Transaction > Mark As Paid. Accounts > Reconcile Account does not have a keyboard shortcut by default. If you are seeing Command-R for that command, you apparently created it yourself.

Spot on, thanks! I had completely forgotten about it.

caram

jacobs said:

caram said:

Report > Export > Copy to Clipboard + Paste in Excel

Decimals are lost in Excel. Cents are also lost even when I paste inside a text editor like Sublime Text 3.
Language & Region > Advanced > General > Number Sep. > Decimal: ","

@caram  It seems this is only when the Mac is set to use a comma for decimals. There is no problem with losing cents when a period is used for decimals. I suggest you report this using Help > Report a Problem, as this should be easily verified, and it likely won't be seen here.

One reason I'm posting here is that Report a Problem from QM no longer works for me (and has not since a couple of releases). I'm always getting an error message. Here's the one I got today for ex. And of course I AM connected to the Internet.

caram

caram said:

jacobs said:

caram said:

Report > Export > Copy to Clipboard + Paste in Excel

Decimals are lost in Excel. Cents are also lost even when I paste inside a text editor like Sublime Text 3.
Language & Region > Advanced > General > Number Sep. > Decimal: ","

@caram  It seems this is only when the Mac is set to use a comma for decimals. There is no problem with losing cents when a period is used for decimals. I suggest you report this using Help > Report a Problem, as this should be easily verified, and it likely won't be seen here.

BTW, a similar issue is happening fo the Re-Reconcile window. Cents are lost and the integer part is strangely formatted (`.03d`):

RickO

Re the error sending a Problem Report: this is a known issue. The workaround is to try unchecking some of the log attachments.

Robert Lynch

I'd like to add that since the update to the reporting, when you drill into a categories to see the transaction details, all categories are collapsed. Was this intentional? Can the transaction details popup be aligned with the report behavior to allow users to control/save a setting on what they wish to have as default viewing preference?

caram

RickO said:

Re the error sending a Problem Report: this is a known issue. The workaround is to try unchecking some of the log attachments.

I know, but it's never worked for me and it didn't right now. I tried all checked, all unchecked, and a number of checked/unchecked combinations, to no avail.

It's a pity to NOT be able to report bugs and I don't quite understand why it does not seem to be regarded as a high priority issue.